43: A11y Hour with Eric Bailey

Chuck Carpenter: [00:09] Welcome to another edition of Whiskey Web and Whatnot. I'm your host, Charles William Carpenter III, and I'm joined by my frequent cohost, Robert William Wagner. Our guest today in the accessibility edition is Eric Bailey. Hey, Eric.

Eric Bailey: [00:27] Hey, how's it going?

Chuck Carpenter: [00:28] Thanks for coming by the Web for us.

Eric Bailey: [00:30] Yeah, it's a big Internet, but I found my way.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:33] Yeah, well, you were just saying how excited you are to try today's whiskey, but before we do that, we'll just let you introduce yourself, tell the people what you got going on.

Eric Bailey: [00:43] Sure. So I'm a user experience designer by trade. I know enough code to know that I can break things pretty good, so that's fun, too. And I have a real interest and passion for accessibility and inclusive design. I help maintain the A11y project, which is an open-source single-stop shop for learning about digital accessibility with posts and resources and all that good stuff. And I do a lot of writing and speaking about the intersection of code usability and disability.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:18] Yeah, it's awesome. So aside from being the law, which a lot of sites and applications don't follow, I think it's a very valiant and worthwhile effort to try and make the web a little better, a little easier for everyone. Okay, well, let's start off by making ourselves less accessible with a little bit of whiskey. Today we are trying the Jefferson's Ocean Aged at Sea Voyage number 24, which we can't find a ton out about that, which is probably on purpose because they're doing each one with different blends and different times at sea and different boats and all of that. I don't even think it tells you how long this was at sea. The premise is that they feel that it can accelerate aging by the movement in the boat and the different temperatures that the boat will go in and out of and just provide like a really different experience. So we know that we know it's on a boat and we know it's 90 proof. Everything else is, Hey, we'll see what happens.

Eric Bailey: [02:21] Yeah. And if it's been on a boat, we have to endorse it because of Ship Shape, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [02:25] Yes, right, exactly. There's a nautical theme. Even though I live in the desert, that still came through. That's the most fun part. Sorry, that's our show.

Eric Bailey: [02:38] And cut.

Robbie Wagner: [02:39] Yeah, no, sorry, I was just going to say for anyone wondering, I totally broke all my set up. We were talking about it before this. I broke my board. I brought it all with me, intending to have good sound quality, and messed it all up. So Chuck is mostly running at this time, but I'm here for the commentary.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:01] He's giving you the excuse why you're stuck with me more, that's all. It's like kind of a cola smell to me.

Robbie Wagner: [03:09] Yes, I would agree with that. Like more cola nut and not like not like Coke necessarily, but like the essence of it.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:17] Yeah, more like RC or flat Pepsi or something. I don't know.

Eric Bailey: [03:22] Yeah, like whatever's left over at a barbecue.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:25] Yeah, exactly. It sat out in the two-liter for a little while, that stuff. That's what it smells like to me.

Eric Bailey: [03:30] It's got a little bit of like a peppery aftertaste the same way like a Coke does. That's interesting.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:35] Yeah, I'm definitely getting some pepper.

Robbie Wagner: [03:38] I think the salt air and stuff is supposed to influence it as well. I don't know if it's slightly salty or if that is just me. My head putting that into my taste there.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:51] Yeah. Well, I get a little citrus at the beginning. I then feel like it has a leathery quality and then it finishes kind of peppery.

Eric Bailey: [04:02] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:02] It's not bad. It's actually like with that pepper but then isn't harsh on the way down.

Eric Bailey: [04:07] Yeah, it's got like not almond, but like same kind of very subtle up front. And then the pepper just kind of hits. I want to know more about the boats, honestly. Is it extra storage room on some guys boat or is it like a special whiskey boat?

Chuck Carpenter: [04:22] That's what it is. It's like different, like transport boats or say Natgeo is sending explorers down to Antarctica or whatever to do things and they get on that boat. From what I understand, it's all kinds of different boats.

Eric Bailey: [04:37] That's cool.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:38] Yeah.

Eric Bailey: [04:39] I'd be sorely tempted to steal a barrel if I was on that ship, too. I wonder if they work out a deal.

Robbie Wagner: [04:46] They're heavier than you think.

Eric Bailey: [04:47] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:48] Turns out taking one and tossing it in the sea and then trying to scuba home might be rough. Also, the submarine that you had to rent in order to escape, you just buy a barrel, just call them up, buy one. I'd go that route.

Eric Bailey: [05:04] The easier way. I forget what expedition they found all the old whiskey on. This was in the news, like, a couple of years ago. It was like some shipwreck, but it was still perfectly sealed and it was like from the 1820s or something.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:18] Oh my.

Eric Bailey: [05:19] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:20] But it turns out that might be terrible, though.

Eric Bailey: [05:22] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:23] The sweet spot was like, production from around prohibition time because they're still medically licensed places making it. And then all the way through the 70s, that was apparently the sweet spot when there used to be dusties to actually go and get and people would get like 1970s old Forrester or not Forrester Old Fitzgerald. And they were like, this is the most amazing stuff ever. But now it's all gone pretty much for us plebs it is.

Eric Bailey: [05:50] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:51] I had once so out of Mount Vernon in Virginia, they were making the same, like, whiskey and brandy that was made on Washington's original property. I guess they found some recipes and made it up and I was like, oh, this is going to be really cool. Allocated bottles. You've got like a small one for like, $80. Tried it. It's terrible. It's horrible.

Eric Bailey: [06:14] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [06:14] Turns out.

Eric Bailey: [06:15] I was just talking with a friend. There seems to be, like, strata of flavors, especially with candy, where it's like before we figured out food science. So it's like, yeah, this is a burnt cinnamon butter candies. Because that's the way...

Chuck Carpenter: [06:33] Yeah, that's what the people want. So I guess at the time, they didn't know how highly refined sugar and corn syrup could make their lives amazing.

Eric Bailey: [06:43] Yeah. You know that new sound you're looking for, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [06:46] Exactly. Before we go too far down that path of whiskies we're not having right now, we should probably talk about this one a little bit. So you may know we do a very strict rating system. It's one to eight tentacles. Cleverly concocted from the octopus. That is our logo octopus thing. I don't know, we're still up on that one. But one being something that you would never touch and you're probably going to dump out. And eight being like, there's nothing else. For me, this is the greatest thing ever. It's all pretty subjective, though. So wherever you land on this one.

Eric Bailey: [07:22] Yeah, I'd say a solid six. It's interesting. And I'm a sucker for a gimmick. And this is one, and I think they did it right where it makes me think of those hacks to super aerate wines with, like, a blender. It's like that, but a little bit more considerate and a little bit more of like, this is an interesting story. And a hook to bring in. And then that peppery finish. I don't drink a lot of soda anymore, but it hits that taste memory for me of like, yeah, okay, this is good. I like this.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:56] Yes, I can take that. You, Robbie?

Robbie Wagner: [07:58] Yeah, I guess I'd give it a six as well. I think it's pretty good. It does have that nice little bit of spice. I was expecting a little bit I don't know, I think the gimmick, like, cost a little more because, for the price point, I was expecting something a little better. But it is very cool that it was on a boat. I like that.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:19] Yeah. So considering those similar points. So I like it to start with, I've had the two other Jeff's Ocean a few years ago. So early on, I think I had, like, the first or second one, and then maybe a little bit down the line and I was like, I don't know, the first one I didn't really like at all. I was like, this is kind of a gimmick. Second one was better, but it was fine. It was good. But the price point on this has started to go up and up. So I always kind of consider that for like, $60, $80, would I still have this? Or would I take the risk on this? Because with every bottle, it's kind of different with each voyage and release, different blends, different whatever magical places they go to. And this one has a little bit of unicorn rainbows to it. So I think it's pretty good. And I'd come back every time there's a different one. It's like starting over. So I'm going to give it a strong six. So Voyage 24. It's good for me.

Robbie Wagner: [09:17] Nice.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:18] All right, cool. So should we talk about serious things a little bit as we sip? Why not, right?

Robbie Wagner: [09:24] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:24] That's what I say. So accessibility isn't necessarily a new thing in our industry, but I think that it really started to be looked at seriously, and practitioners are taking a lot more desire and including that in the definition of done in features and applications and websites. So tell us a little bit about how you got to be working in the A11y project and just accessibility in general.

Eric Bailey: [09:55] Sure. Yeah, I'd be happy to. Your comment on becoming kind of more prevalent in the front-end space. There are jobs out there where it's like, if you told me what you'd be doing five years ago, I would have laughed in your face.

Chuck Carpenter: [10:09] Right.

Eric Bailey: [10:09] It's definitely matured a whole lot in a really short amount of time, and that's really cool and really weird and really scary all the same time.

Chuck Carpenter: [10:16] Yeah. Because it's not just the threat of litigation, which was always one part of it potentially like this wide net of maybe you should have this, but internally, and like you said, job postings. Like, there are dedicated job postings to it because there's an understanding of the importance and seriousness.

Eric Bailey: [10:34] Yeah. I used to think, like, this shouldn't be a job because everyone should be doing it, but the more I explore the space, the more I understand there is a need for specialization, like any other kind of technical consideration. And these roles cropping up, I think, are kind of evidence of that, where typically it would be like, the one accessibility person at the org who'd just field questions and slings code and hopefully get some stuff in under the wire. And now we're seeing a lot more of a systematic approach to it, which is really cool because I think that's honestly the only real way to get things done. And same as any other discipline, the more you can spread that across a team, the more it actually will get instituted.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:16] Right. There you go. Somebody is leading the initiative. They're kind of a product owner around that, and they're architecting solutions and spending the time as their full-time job and making sure that what's being implemented is sufficient and tested and all of those things. But then, conversely, I think, like you said, I don't think you're wrong in your initial thoughts. It is everyone's job. Right. It's just a part of the puzzle because one person can't do it alone, but also you can't spread the onus of understanding what is appropriate to apply and how and all of that kind of stuff. So it's kind of both.

Eric Bailey: [11:54] Yeah and I think with this role, it's definitely advocate and educator as much as it is like IC . But if you're doing it well, hopefully, you're also making it harder on yourself, by which I mean the common everyday questions kind of fade away and you get hit with the really tricky things where you need to go to official documents and decipher what their intent means as opposed to like, I assure you, a link element is great for linking to things.

Chuck Carpenter: [12:25] Yeah, the semantics I kind of feel like semantic documents have kind of faded. It used to really be an important thing for a little while and then there was things that added on top of that. Like what was that called? The microformats or something that was supposed to assign roles and break down an article and really make that more machine-readable as well.

Eric Bailey: [12:49] Yeah, I'm a big microformats dork. And the dream of the early 2000s, semantic web is right, still alive somewhere.

Chuck Carpenter: [12:59] Yeah, we were trying to really do it at National Geographic back in the day, and because there was all that kind of content, we wanted it to be machine-readable. And there's a ton of benefits from a data analysis perspective as well as from an accessibility perspective, but it takes a lot of time and effort to a degree you have to be able to enforce that in some ways. And machines weren't as smart then, I don't think.

Eric Bailey: [13:24] Yeah, I think I've been in the industry for a minute and there's definitely an ebb and a flow to it as well. Like, we're starting to see, I would say, the third wave of web app creation. And they're calling it what is it? Multi-page apps as opposed to single-page apps, which is basically like, the internet is more than just a document delivery mechanism and like, web apps are here to stay. You probably use dozens of them every day. And so one thing that single-page architecture does is it introduces a lot of, in my opinion, like artificial complexity. And I think we're starting to see a lot of pushback against that because the platform itself is matured. And so you're starting to see a lot of newer approaches that are kind of taking a second look at HTML and considering it as the first-class citizen. It's kind of always been Remix Run comes to mind. Progressive enhancement is really at its core. I'm a huge Eleventy fanboy. Like, most websites that are single-page applications don't need to be like, I just want to order a burrito that's just let me pick the burrito toppings and hit submit. That's a form that can live on a static page. No big deal.

Chuck Carpenter: [14:43] Right. Yeah, that's true. It's like we've come around full circle. We went through all this single-page application stuff in order to like, yeah, snappy and moving through, and I don't want to go back to the server and render every page. And now we're like, actually we could do that because the technology is better. Let's go back to doing that. And pretty interesting.

Robbie Wagner: [15:04] I think, on Syntax, they talked about like, are we just building everything that PHP used to be into JavaScript and saying, wow, this is new and cool and hot and like this was PHP. This is the same thing now.

Chuck Carpenter: [15:19] Yeah, we just got hardware that caught up to that complexity and some other new technologies to throw into it. But yeah, to a degree.

Eric Bailey: [15:27] Yeah, it's kind of the heartbeat of the web too, where it's like, people will try new and interesting things and then the standards will adapt to them and you'll get improvements or new APIs. I'm super interested in the element transition API and that's kind of to bring single-page app like transitions to non-single-page apps and also single-page apps, but I think it'll do a lot of heavy lifting in terms of the web competing with apps. This is not about accessibility at all, except it kind of is, because it also it'll hook into the preferred reduced motion API, which is really cool. So like, people that get vestibular conditions triggered by large amounts of motion can opt-out or they can write their own user scripts in styles if the developers don't think too. And that's huge compared to like a packaged app that comes down via the App Store where you just kind of got to hope for the best. So as a fan of the Internet, I love that it's kind of a two-way street. You're able to kind of take what is delivered to you and modify it to get your own needs met as well.

Chuck Carpenter: [16:35] Yeah, that's interesting. I for one wasn't even aware of that API, and thinking about that in the context of transitions like web applications and how that could actually affect people as well. Are there people that are like, I mean, hopefully, parallax is dead, but let's just say that there are plenty of people still kind of doing that. I always thought something like that might actually apply in the same way to that API, right? Like this the weird 3D motion, whatever stuff that goes on there, and you're like, No, I would like to nope out of that a little bit.

Eric Bailey: [17:08] Yeah, totally. That's exactly the use case in my mind where throw in user styles, which is last in order of cascade inheritance for a very good reason, and just be like, no. And what if that transition effect is something you use on an internet site or like an internal application they have to use every day for your job? Having the ability to nope out of that is super cool.

Robbie Wagner: [17:30] Yeah, definitely. I think people have gotten a little bit crazy on some stuff. I think some of them are a little bit more proof of concept. I guess people just want to show off how much animation they can put into things, which is cool. I like to look at them, but then everyone comments on the post and it's like, wow, my computer is taking off right now because there's, like, so much animation happening. I think there's a middle ground, and we definitely should, but I guess that's hard. If you built it with all that in mind and you didn't build it with someone to disable it, is it going to work or not? Once you disable that, it's a huge problem.

Chuck Carpenter: [18:10] Right? Yeah. And then, like, the intent, I guess. Right. So it reminds me of this term that I came across in the mid-2000s or whatever, where when there was a bunch of flash sites and they were just trying to basically do, like little interactive movies on your computer. I don't know, it was just, like a lot going on and sometimes for no reason whatsoever, especially like some kind of brochure where the guy was talking about this and he said, stop the flashturbation. And when everything is just, like, over the top and goes past literally delivering you anything other than some crazy different visual experience. But then, I don't know, is a website like a movie or like a game, like an interactive or whatever else? And if that's the intent, then I guess that's something that perhaps you want to preface and pull people into, opt into. But yeah, there's different like, with the parallax thing, it's a very good example of something that was just, like, new and flashy, and they applied it to every single business website ever. And that would be flashturbation to me.

Eric Bailey: [19:14] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:15] I don't need this. I need information about your hours of operation.

Eric Bailey: [19:20] No pun intended. I'm totally flashing back to those five-minute intro videos where it's, like, amazing, and then lines sweep across the screen and there's like a grid. For some reason. It looks like a rave poster and it's like, we sell bread. I'm like, okay, yeah, exactly.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:37] At the end, Wonder Bread, more kick ass. And the other breads, don't put your Velveeta cheese on anything else.

Robbie Wagner: [19:46] Oh, my God.

Eric Bailey: [19:47] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [19:48] We're going to do that. Absolutely.

Eric Bailey: [19:51] Velveeta lawyers, please ignore this podcast.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:56] Most people ignore this podcast. Sorry, Eric, this isn't a total waste for you, but plus we like to brand drop just to see if anyone will sponsor us, like, ever. It would be pretty cool. Usually, it's stuff we're like wearing or that we're interested in, but I don't mind Velveeta the shells. Good. I'm into that. Wonder Bread.

Robbie Wagner: [20:15] Yeah, it's at least 50% cheese, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [20:18] Exactly. So cheese, like, product in a pinch. If you can't get deli American cheese, which is, like, kind of the best, then this works for both smash burgers and grilled cheese sandwiches.

Eric Bailey: [20:30] Yes, you are correct on the smash burgers front, for sure. That is right.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:34] Yeah, I've been very into that. We can make this some whatnot here in a minute. But yeah, I'm very into burgers and I have the Great American Burger book, by the way, so all these crazy burger recipe things. But back to people and the internet.

Robbie Wagner: [20:50] Let's talk about what matters. Yeah, so I know one of the things that you had mentioned, and I think this really makes a lot of sense, it's like thinking about how you're going to fix accessibility issues. As someone who isn't disabled, you need to have people involved that are so that you know if you're doing it right. Can you talk a little bit about how you can do that more in that process?

Eric Bailey: [21:15] Yeah, that's a great question. What comes immediately to mind is the phrase nothing about us without us, which is commonly used in disability circles, which is if you are talking about these concerns, having representation is so important. It's also worth pointing out the disability community is not a monolith. And then within different types of disability, there's no unique rallying cry for each kind of condition you may have. They're people, we're people. And so it's important to when you do this, ideally, having disabled voices involved in the process early and often, but also kind of keeping in mind that you don't want to tokenize. And this is something that I try to be very cognizant of as I identify as able to, but I speak with and interact with the disability community and the last thing I want to do is typecast or tokenize or suggest that this is the one true way to do things. And that can be intimidating. But these communities are really welcoming, they're really friendly. A lot of it on Twitter is probably one of my favorite places to go, just to kind of tune in and then trying not to center yourself here, just being present, listening if people are sharing their lived experiences with you, just making sure you keep an open mind about it and just be thankful and grateful that they're willing to expend the effort. And then in terms of creating accessible change in your company or on your project, the thing that really gets me is being afraid to try. And there's a lot that goes into web accessibility, there's a lot that goes into disability, but it is a practice of incremental change. And the more you kind of immerse yourself in it, the more you kind of learn about it. But a lot of the common access barriers are pretty straightforward things. Stuff like headings and color contrast and plain language writing, that's good design. And I think those kinds of things are very easy to teach, they're very easy to kind of adapt into your daily practice. There is definitely a time and a place for complicated area configurations and stuff like that. But I think that speaks again to the emergent specialization that we're seeing. This is something you can definitely scaffold out to designers, to developers, to content writers, to project managers and just the more you normalize it, the better it gets. I also really like the concept of disability usability testing, whereas a UX designer, like, usable is usable. If you're using a mouse or a trackpad or a keyboard, that's usability. Sorry. It's not just one of those.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:12] Right.

Eric Bailey: [24:13] Or even voice command. And so bringing people in who are daily assistive technology users and having them actually navigate through things is an incredibly compelling, incredibly eye-opening experience. And there's a little bit of nuance within that as well, where I can use a screen reader I can also see and I can turn the screen reader off when I don't want to use it. And that is very different to somebody that uses it 40, 60, 80 plus hours a week, all day, every day for the rest of their lives. They're going to have very different usability approaches and muscle memory and techniques for navigating stuff and it's going to be a lot different than my experience. That being said, every major operating system ships with a screen-reader and it's totally cool to spend a little bit of time playing around with it just to see how it works. One of the cool things about assistive technology is pretty neutral about how it interfaces with the device, so you can kind of explore it and it'll work with you to get what you want.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:16] Interesting. Yeah, that would be an interesting experiment to just turn on the OS screen reader and I've done it by accident a few times, but not like intently where I'm like, how do I do that? But yeah, to actually try to embrace that and see what it is. I do use some accessibility features, though, within my OS because I'm getting older and getting blind and I make all the text giant, large font, high contrast, all that stuff. So I am cognizant of that. Sorry, Robbie, did you have a question?

Robbie Wagner: [25:51] No, I think I was going to kind of comment on that. What's the best way to find some people to help you with this? Because imagine you're a startup who has budget for two people to work on your product. You probably don't have a ton of money to spend on making sure all of your accessibility is good or hiring people with different abilities to test it out. Are there any kind of communities that kind of are just into doing that free or cheap? Or is there like a way I can say, hey, everybody?

Chuck Carpenter: [26:23] Or automation maybe.

Robbie Wagner: [26:24] Or yeah, what's the best way to be like, I've got this thing, I really want to make sure it's accessible. I'm trying to do the right thing, but how do I get everyone to say, yes, I did it right, I want to be for sure.

Eric Bailey: [26:36] Yeah, I'd like to kind of kick that off with if you can pay, you're asking for expertise for niche knowledge workers, and the disability community historically faces a lot of barriers towards full-time employment, so paying people for their work goes a long way. That being said, you're not always working for an organization with unlimited budget and infinite money. If you are, I really like organizations like Fable, which do do these services. And they do it through a lens of usability, which I think is pretty much the way forward in terms of accessibility and digital technology. If you don't have those resources, check your community. Where I live, there is a school for the blind. They do a lot of community outreach, including coming in and using stuff for people that are learning how to be blind in the world, including using a computer. That's really cool. And then one thing I do as a usability kind of nerd is a lot of tests and you can just hit up Craigslist for the price of a coffee or something. Just see if anybody takes the bait. That's a perfectly okay way of using it. Gorilla usability testing. If you're just walking down the hall, although I guess I hope you're not in a hall right now, and if you're out taking a nature walk, talk to people, see what they think.

Chuck Carpenter: [27:59] Yeah, definitely. I like the umbrella that you cast opened. I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [28:06] The net that you cast.

Chuck Carpenter: [28:08] Yeah, the net that you cast. That would be sustainable fishing. I could go down other paths here the ideology that it's not just accessibility and usability, but usability is accessibility. Right. And then keeping that in your thought process of having something that the users, all of your users, any of your users can engage with. That's an interesting way to think about it, actually. Say you were talking to a small consulting agency with a few internal projects and then obviously client work. And a lot of times clients have their own internals or consultants to sort of enforce their rules around that. But you want to do a good thing still too internally on what you put out and what you're making and whatever else. So what are the get-started best practices you would start a new team with? Maybe that's a good way to think of it.

Eric Bailey: [29:05] Sure. You mentioned automation. I really like CI/CD checks for code because it pushes against that one accessibility person that has to do everything. And asking somebody like that to review every PR everybody in an org puts out is a recipe for burnout. But a CI/CD checker, it's an emotionless robot that will scan every line of code and catch a lot of lower hanging fruit, programmatically determinable things, which is both good to keep you honest with like a paper trail, but also it's a learning experience. Tools like X, which a company called the Q makes, they hook it up to a knowledge center so you can kind of self-educate. And I think that's pretty cool. And that gets you going. The other thing that I like that does is it frees up time for professional testers so they can focus on the meaty stuff that isn't programmatically determinable. And that's great because that's really respectful to their time and expertise. So I will catch flack for saying this. I think the vast majority of access issues are actually created in the design phase. We just like to gripe about development because it's more objective. Test pass. Great. Cool. Everything good. But things like color contrast, things like a consistent grid, having external consistency with other experiences other than your own. So like do your checkboxes look like checkboxes. I'm thinking of some brochure site where some genius designer was like, we're going to make them circles. And I'm like, those are radio buttons. This is confusing.

Chuck Carpenter: [30:52] Right?

Robbie Wagner: [30:52] Or not just do they look like it, but are they checkboxes? Yeah, if you're making a div look like a checkbox, it's still not very accessible.

Chuck Carpenter: [31:02] Right.

Eric Bailey: [31:03] And things are getting better. I wish the platform had better primitives for that kind of stuff. Because making an accessible checkbox that looks pretty is something you got to spend a little time to do. If you have a design system, great. Solve it once, extend everywhere. If you're banging out one-off sites every three weeks or three months, that's a little bit trickier. Especially if you have retention issues or like having to teach the same thing over and over again. So I hope initiatives like Open UI give us a little bit more leeway with styling because the experience of learning about accessibility oftentimes stinks because you're often dinged for it. And it's something that hypothetically, you're not introduced to as a practitioner and that puts a really sour taste in a lot of people's mouths. So it's like not only did I mess up something I didn't know about, but also I need to rework what I did and also I need to completely refactor it for this complicated code setup that uses a lot of terms and attributes that I've never heard of before. I hope I got it right. Also, if I don't, I might get sued. Cool. Great. So the more you can kind of bake it in earlier and the more you can kind of have robots checking and just being cognizant that this exists in the first place, that does a lot of the heavy lifting. So you avoid that really negative interaction.

Robbie Wagner: [32:32] Yeah, for sure.

Chuck Carpenter: [32:32] Yeah. Very interested in some of these automation tools that you can hook into and getting feedback about how poorly we may be doing in this realm. Yeah, I blame Robbie. It's fine.

Eric Bailey: [32:43] We know what you did on the design side as well. There's tools like Stark, which does a color contrast calculation so you don't have to do math. You just click a button and it goes, yeah, looks good. And you can carry on your way. And like if you're setting up a brand palette if you're figuring out the colors for your site. Do it there. Good job. Don't have to worry about it anymore.

Robbie Wagner: [33:05] Lighthouse also tells you, I think, right?

Eric Bailey: [33:08] Yeah, lighthouse uses a subset of acts under the hood, and I think it was a really smart move that they did. And I wish Google had the courage to have that portion of the Lighthouse Score affect search ranking like every other part of Lighthouse does.

Chuck Carpenter: [33:24] Yeah. That really say we care. But the problem is, well, I guess that's just for organic search because they're always going to prioritize, like, paid ads. It just is what it is in that sense. And they do kind of block that off, so why not?

Eric Bailey: [33:39] Yeah, they did it for Panda, their update, where they kind of waged war on non-responsive and MDOT sites. So that would be about the same level of significance, in my opinion.

Chuck Carpenter: [33:49] I agree. Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [33:50] I think they'll get there. I think it's just they do things very slowly, like, they've told us that they're going to get rid of, I think, the original Google Analytics or something. And they're like, you have until, like, the end of 2023 to figure it out. Nothing moves fast there. So, yeah, I think they'll get there and they don't want anyone to be changing the entire Internet overnight and freaking out over like, oh, my God, we've all got to change everything. But I do think that someone large like that does need to be the driving force to make sure that things are going in the right direction.

Chuck Carpenter: [34:24] Yeah. People have to be at risk to lose money, either through litigation or marketing or whatever, and that unfortunately, a lot of times what will move the masses.

Eric Bailey: [34:35] Yeah, I'm pretty Pragmatic here. Like, whatever gets the job done. I prefer to leave with honey instead of vinegar, but whatever does it at the end of the day.

Chuck Carpenter: [34:45] Yeah, indeed. I'm going to go into some lighter things. Now, we talked earlier about what applies to smash burgers. So are you a burger connoisseur such as myself, or are you just, like, in that realm? I know what I want, and that's what it is.

Eric Bailey: [35:01] I'm more a grateful recipient.

Chuck Carpenter: [35:04] Got you.

Eric Bailey: [35:05] Yeah. My upstairs neighbor who I'm friends with is like, a really accomplished grill person, and I've been benefiting all summer for his expertise.

Chuck Carpenter: [35:17] Yeah, it's not too shabby.

Eric Bailey: [35:19] I do like a good smash burger. I do like a good Juicy Lucy. Takes all types.

Chuck Carpenter: [35:24] You know what a Juicy Lucy is? Does Robbie?

Robbie Wagner: [35:27] I do not. I'm assuming it is loosely packed or something.

Chuck Carpenter: [35:32] Yeah, it's got the cheese in the middle, so when you break open, it's like just delicious goo coming out. Yeah, that's in that book that I mentioned. There's this guy, the one who wrote that book, George something up. I don't know. I forget. He's been on the burger show on.

Robbie Wagner: [35:49] Foreman?

Chuck Carpenter: [35:49] No, he's got kind of like wolverine-like chops going on I forget his name. But anyway, so he has, like, a show. He has this book about all these traditional burgers throughout different regions of the United States and shows you how to make the basic kinds of burgers, like the smash burger, the pub burger, all of that stuff. There's a steamed one that's a little weird. There's a deep-fried burger that actually looks pretty good. And then he was also on the burger show, which is first We Feast has a couple of different shows. The most famous one is Hot Ones, but they have some other shows, and one of them is about burgers. And yeah, it's awesome if you like burgers, which I do.

Robbie Wagner: [36:32] So you just watch all food-related TV?

Chuck Carpenter: [36:34] Well, not only no, I like docuseries, but I do like some food TV. Absolutely. I've watched plenty of stuff, like Bourdain stuff and a bunch of David Chang shows. And there was this chef on Netflix, which I like because it opened up with that French guy who moved to Argentina and he was doing, like, Argentine asados, like, all traditionally. That is cool.

Eric Bailey: [36:57] Yeah, I really enjoy that. Top Chef reruns have also been doing an incredible amount of emotional heavy lifting during quarantine.

Chuck Carpenter: [37:03] Right? Yeah. That's reasonable. So I touched on Wolverine. Have you heard of that character, Wolverine?

Eric Bailey: [37:11] Oh, yes. If the black glasses didn't T you off. I'm a giant nerd and grew up reading comic books like 90s X-Men.

Chuck Carpenter: [37:20] Oh, very nice. Yes. I was also a comic collector, unfortunately, in the 80s. Just means I'm older. I'm old, but yeah. So you're into that now still?

Eric Bailey: [37:32] Yeah, I do collections a little bit more than, like, individual issues. So nerdy. I really like the series Delicious Dungeon, which is manga. And it's about, like, a little fantasy hero team that goes into a dungeon and cooks what they eat. So there's your connecting thread of food and comics.

Chuck Carpenter: [37:55] Yeah, there you go.

Robbie Wagner: [37:56] Sounds fun.

Chuck Carpenter: [37:57] I sometimes read comics here and there. Like, I had someone I got brought back to it like five years or so ago, and someone introduced me to Lock and Key. I was like, Okay, Stephen King's son, let's check this out. That was cool. Saga was another one I read and.

Eric Bailey: [38:12] Loved saga.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:13] Yeah. And then here and there, I just get them from the library. Like the digital thing. You get them at the library. It's pretty awesome. So any suggestions you have, I will take.

Eric Bailey: [38:23] Saga is pretty great, but that's already on your list. It's coming to mind because I just watched the trailer, but Paper Girls, it was really cute. And oh man I'm getting put on the spot here.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:36] That's the Y: The Last Man guy, right? Same one, yeah.

Eric Bailey: [38:40] Brian Cavan. Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:41] Okay. Yeah. Cool. There's a show for that, too, now, which I haven't seen, but.

Robbie Wagner: [38:46] Yeah, I'll wait for the shows.

Eric Bailey: [38:47] Exactly.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:49] Well, Lock and Key is the show.

Robbie Wagner: [38:51] Yeah. I've been meaning to watch that.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:53] Yeah, it was interesting, but I thought I liked the comics better, personally. Just kind of like the translation isn't always there.

Eric Bailey: [38:59] Yeah, I really liked Trans Metropolitan, which is a future journalist kind of fighting the system. It's written by Warren Ellis, who is one of my favorites, but that's kind of like his opus. A lot of X-Men has been doing a lot of cool stuff with their Powers of X and stuff like that. And it started off as a civil rights kind of metaphor, and it's kind of morphed here and there into sometimes a disability metaphor, sometimes like a trans rights metaphor. And it's interesting to see them kind of playing with it and then kind of like updating the characters to match the zeitgeist, but also shoot lasers out of their eyes.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:44] Right. You still got to have Cyclops. Come on, OG.

Robbie Wagner: [39:50] I never really understood Cyclops. Like, he can't stop shooting lasers from his eyes.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:57] That's what the glasses were for.

Robbie Wagner: [39:58] That sounds terrible.

Eric Bailey: [40:00] Lasers from the punch dimension.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:03] Yeah. What did they do before they were able to and also, why do his eyelids stop it?

Eric Bailey: [40:10] Well, then we get into weird, like, why does he need ruby lenses? And how did he figure that? Did he iterate on it?

Chuck Carpenter: [40:17] Yeah. I think Professor X was the one who figured it out, right? Yeah. He was like his first student.

Eric Bailey: [40:22] But he's not like a material scientist. He's just like a guy that's kind of creepy and pervs on your thoughts and has a school.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:29] Listen, James McAvoy is fine. What's wrong with that? Do you like Old X or New X or Young X?

Eric Bailey: [40:38] Yeah, it's my rapper name.

Robbie Wagner: [40:41] Young X.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:43] Old X. Young X. Old X. We can be a duo. I'm Old X.

Eric Bailey: [40:46] Yeah I do like that Patrick Stewart and I'm blanking on his name. I like that. Professor X and Magneto actors like to hang out in real life and get up to hijinks. That is adorable and I'm here for it.

Robbie Wagner: [41:02] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:02] It's like old British stage actors, like hanging out for fun.

Eric Bailey: [41:06] Yeah who are accomplished enough that they just don't give a shit what other people think about them.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:11] I'm loved Paramount Plus wants me whenever.

Eric Bailey: [41:15] I just backed a dump truck full of cash up to my house.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:22] And my great-grandchildren are happy. They're like, we're going to get some of that.

Eric Bailey: [41:25] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:26] Okay. So, yeah, it sounds like X-Men has been, like, the constant thread throughout all things X-Men. So, I mean, what do you think, staying at Sony Studios or whatever? Fox. Yeah, they're at Sony, right? No, Fox had them, so Fox had them. 21st Century Fox had them. And then, I guess, since Disney bought a bunch of media stuff from that, I mean, do they move over? Do they become part of the cinematic universe? Are they still ostracized?

Eric Bailey: [41:55] I really hope they get moved over because it's weird that characters get lent for IP reasons, but you kind of had your shot there.

Chuck Carpenter: [42:08] Yeah.

Eric Bailey: [42:08] I don't know how many more of those movies I can sit through.

Chuck Carpenter: [42:11] Yeah I can't keep having reboots every time somebody changes their mind on how it should have been before. Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [42:17] Like, the Marvel shows on Netflix were amazing. And then they were like, hey, we want you to not make these anymore. Or like, we want tons of money or something. I forget. I don't remember if they actually gave them an offer and wanted lots of money and they said no or why it happened. But it's like, no, we're not making them. And they're like, okay, well, we're going to remake them again. But they can't use any of the plot from the previous ones now, so they can have the same actors. Same thing.

Chuck Carpenter: [42:45] I thought Daredevil is getting moved over, like, as is. No?

Robbie Wagner: [42:48] No, it cannot have the previous plot. So that's kind of ridiculous. I want to know what happened.

Eric Bailey: [42:57] Yeah. It's very comic book to retcon the heck out of everything and retell it. But also I enjoyed Daredevil. I liked that little universe they built up. I liked that it infiltrated the other Marvel Netflix shows.

Chuck Carpenter: [43:13] Yeah. There was crossovers there and.

Eric Bailey: [43:17] Little background details of stuff that went down. Like, the Battle of New York affected the real estate in Daredevil, which showed up in one of the other shows.

Chuck Carpenter: [43:29] Yeah.

Eric Bailey: [43:29] But all that's going to be gone.

Robbie Wagner: [43:31] Yeah. Daredevil was, like, the number three streaming show. I think. I remember reading of all streaming shows at the time on any platform. And they're just like, no, we can't figure out a way to make this work. Too much money involved.

Chuck Carpenter: [43:45] Yeah. And then they tried to make all the other shows, which were like.

Robbie Wagner: [43:49] Luke Cage was good. I like Luke Cage.

Chuck Carpenter: [43:51] Luke Cage was good. And then they kind of, like, started going down with, like, Iron Fist and Jessica Jones and, like.

Robbie Wagner: [43:58] Very adjacent.

Chuck Carpenter: [43:59] Just give me more Matt Murdoch.

Robbie Wagner: [44:00] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:02] And don't let it be Ben Affleck. Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [44:05] Are you a Ben Affleck hater too?

Chuck Carpenter: [44:07] No, I'm fine with him. I just don't like him as a superhero.

Robbie Wagner: [44:11] Fair.

Eric Bailey: [44:11] I remember renting it and being very excited because it was like, all right, comic book movie. Like any port in a storm here. And then watching it and being like, I feel like I'm forcing myself to like this.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:24] Yes. How did you blow that? And he's competing with George Clooney for Worst Batman. So I don't know.

Eric Bailey: [44:32] It's true.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:32] Clooney probably wins because basically, it was like a vehicle for selling toys. It was so campy but stays close.

Eric Bailey: [44:39] I wish they just went full in and had different bat suits to be like, yeah, this is going to be a toy. We all understand this costume changes every act.

Robbie Wagner: [44:50] You know what was good, though?

Chuck Carpenter: [44:52] What?

Robbie Wagner: [44:53] The Gotham show.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:56] I didn't watch it, but I have heard good things about it. I feel like it was just like.

Robbie Wagner: [44:59] It was very good.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:00] You pay for X number of streaming services, and it was just somewhere where I couldn't get too easily or something. I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [45:05] It was on, like, NBC or, like, real TV that's free. Like, you didn't even have to do anything.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:11] But I'm a cord cutter. And then trying to set up those. It's so funny because NBC has a lot of soccer, too. And I was trying to set that up to get normal NBC. And for whatever reason, the digital antenna that I set up could get every channel but NBC. It was, like, terrible on NBC. So yeah.

Eric Bailey: [45:31] You're telling me you can just get TV for free?

Chuck Carpenter: [45:34] You could.

Robbie Wagner: [45:35] Yeah, I think it's crazy. The networks are free over the air, and they're the holdouts for every streaming service. They're like, no, we want hundreds of millions of dollars to be on your service. But you're free over the air. What are you doing?

Chuck Carpenter: [45:49] And in both platforms, you're still going to show me a shit ton of commercials. I'm not getting out of commercials, but giving you money?

Robbie Wagner: [45:56] No.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:56] So this is dumb. I can't pay everybody $10 a month or $20 a month or whatever.

Eric Bailey: [46:01] It's commercials, which actually got me to pay for Hulu for real. Because it was like, if you wash out of commercial making school, I feel like you make commercials for Hulu because whatever, they syndicated. I was like, this feels like a bad movie's version of a parody of a commercial. But it's not even good enough to be funny. I'm spending too much time overthinking these things.

Chuck Carpenter: [46:24] Right?

Eric Bailey: [46:24] All right, fine. Have my money. It's fine.

Chuck Carpenter: [46:27] Maybe that's their intent. There's no quality control here. We're trying to get them over on the other side.

Robbie Wagner: [46:33] Yeah, we want it to be bad. Get that more expensive description.

Eric Bailey: [46:37] Yeah. I'm thinking the 5-hour Energy drink ones. The lighting was off and it felt like they found an alien and said, please make a normal human commercial. He's like, Yes, I shall.

Chuck Carpenter: [46:51] This is what I understand them to be. Just make it with a phone and charge them $200,000.

Eric Bailey: [46:58] That's the dream. Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [46:59] That is the dream.

Robbie Wagner: [47:00] Yeah. Like the guy that I forget what song it was. I even forget which artist it was these days. But there was somebody made a beat and charged that artist, like 300 grand for it. And it was like a GarageBand loop. Like, they just clicked, like, add this to the track and did no work and charged $300,000.

Chuck Carpenter: [47:19] There you go. Perceived value, right?

Eric Bailey: [47:21] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [47:22] You know what? That isn't that's not five beats a day, every day for three summers? Definitely not by Kanye West reference. I forget which song that was. It was an early one back in the day.

Robbie Wagner: [47:32] I don't know. You have a lot of Kanye references.

Chuck Carpenter: [47:34] A lot. Oh, okay. The more I drink, the more Kanye comes out. That's going to be I should stop drinking.

Eric Bailey: [47:43] It's like a werewolf, but for Kanye West instead.

Chuck Carpenter: [47:45] Yeah, I turn into Kanye with a full moon.

Robbie Wagner: [47:49] Your shoes turn into those. Ridiculous Yeezys.

Chuck Carpenter: [47:53] Yeah. And then this hat just turns red because, you know, he did the MAGA dad hat so bad.

Eric Bailey: [48:00] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [48:01] Okay. We've devolved.

Robbie Wagner: [48:04] Well, the flip side of comic books. You said you're also into video games, right?

Eric Bailey: [48:08] I am, yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [48:09] What do you play?

Eric Bailey: [48:10] I have a switch because I very deliberately restrict myself to it so I don't completely disappear.

Chuck Carpenter: [48:19] Good.

Eric Bailey: [48:20] I like indie games a lot. I just finished up, like, a rerun through A Breath of the Wild because it's nice. Every mechanic that I hate, and yet I love it. So that's a testament to how good the gameplay is.

Chuck Carpenter: [48:32] Right.

Eric Bailey: [48:33] I can do a little bridge work here, too. The gaming industry is also going through an accessibility renaissance. And what's interesting there, I think it's because of a lot of very sizable lawsuits that have been settled in private. But if I could do it all over again, I'd do accessibility in video games because people are embracing it and there's some really cool stuff rolling out. Like The Last of Us Part II, which is kind of like the go-to example. The amount of customization you can do in that is mind-blowing. And meanwhile, I'm over here being like, I wish you would add a focus style, please. And they're like, We've completely reconfigured this game to match to your unique needs. All you have to do is configure it to immerse yourself in our world. And I'm like, I want to go to there.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:21] Yeah, it would have been really funny if you would have said you were starting to say, like, well, if I could go back and change things, I would sue them all.

Eric Bailey: [49:32] Yes.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:33] I was wondering if you would just sue them and take the money and then this would still be the outcome.

Eric Bailey: [49:41] On that. Again, how many more people are they winning over for? Like, you can literally play our game now, and it's not a big deal. It's in an options menu. And, like, the same way you remap your controls, you make the font bigger. For the subtitles, there's some really cool, and because everything is tracking and everything has telemetry, there's some really cool data coming out. Like, I think it was Sony tried I forget which game, but they shipped with subtitles on by default, and 60% of all the users of the game didn't disable them once they were turned on. And like, that's cool. That makes me notice because, yes, people that are deaf should have the subtitles so they can understand what's going on the same way somebody who isn't deaf can. But also, it's a nice quality of life experience, and a lot of people probably don't even investigate it unless it's on by default. And then they don't either because they don't care to or they enjoy it. They don't turn it off.

Chuck Carpenter: [50:41] Yeah.

Eric Bailey: [50:42] That's cool.

Chuck Carpenter: [50:43] Yeah, I mean, it's beneficial from an accessibility standpoint and then like you said, there can be all kinds of life reasons to include these options. Anyway, it could be like, oh, my wife is watching the show and I still want to be able to play the game and I'm not going to put on headphones because that's disengaging, but I can read all the stuff, I'm on the switch. Here you go. I can read it. And there we go.

Eric Bailey: [51:06] When you're like me and you're up at midnight because you can't sleep and you're playing games and it says explosion to the left, and I'm like, Cool.

Robbie Wagner: [51:15] I frequently use the subtitles because we have a three-month-old and he's not supposed to be exposed to the sounds and explosions and whatever. So, yeah, I use the subtitles on all my games.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:26] Yeah. Well, is he supposed to be exposed to the blue light from your gaming console?

Robbie Wagner: [51:32] Well, we face him away from the TV. I mean, I guess if there's some off the back wall he gets a little bit but like he's mostly not exposed.

Eric Bailey: [51:41] The soft, soothing light of a PlayStation 5.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:44] Exactly. Yeah, it's interesting too, because I think so what you're saying is there's this one game who's just really setting the standards and doing things right and it makes me think about how like it's kind of one game that is ensured that I continue to own a switch. And Breath of the Wild was like, oh, this is amazing, and then played some other Zelda ports and stuff just to kind of like stay engaged. And then when in the midst of the pandemic, they went crazy. There was like supply chain issues and people were paying double for used ones and I was like.

Eric Bailey: [52:17] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:17] Maybe I sell it because I'm opportunistic. And then I was like, Well, Breath of the Wild. Yeah, because if I sell it now, then when the new one comes out at some point in the future, next year, I don't know, they keep kind of pushing it next year.

Robbie Wagner: [52:34] Yeah, it was this year, it's next year now.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:36] Yeah.

Eric Bailey: [52:36] I'd rather be good than rushed by.

Eric Bailey: [52:40] Yeah, totally agree. And there's other things like Tony Hawk Pro Skater was one that I started playing on there and then I can also play Mario Kart with my son and it keeps giving back.

Eric Bailey: [52:52] Yeah, I have a PS 4 on borrow from a friend too, and that's just for Thursday night game nights, which is going to be real interesting. Two glasses in.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:01] Yeah, exactly.

Eric Bailey: [53:02] But it's more social at this point. I don't really consider it a console as much as I consider it like an extra step on discord to chat with my friends that are living in faraway places. And so games are social that way, but also we are playing we're just also trash talking and stuff like that.

Robbie Wagner: [53:20] I do that a lot with a lot of my friends because we think it's more acceptable than just like calling your bro up and being like, hey, how's it going? It's more fun to play a game and chat than it is to just call someone.

Eric Bailey: [53:32] Yeah, I tried that and it did not go well.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:36] It's more fun. Like, I do co-op gaming with my brothers and we've done a few times in internal happy hours and stuff. So you get on rec room on Oculus and decide to play Pictionary or play you can play like, paintball or disc golf. And then I'll play mini-golf with my brother. We tried a couple of regular games too, where you shoot things. I'm not very good at shooting things games, so kind of steer away from those. But yeah, there's some fun things across. A couple of Stadia is another interesting platform because you're not stuck on any one machine. It's all streaming.

Eric Bailey: [54:13] Yeah, I think Stadia was ahead of its time. And also, I swear I'm not trying to dunk on Google, but I think they have a history of trying cool things and then it completely abandoning them.

Robbie Wagner: [54:26] Google Glass or whatever.

Eric Bailey: [54:28] Yeah, I've seen that streaming portal. I think there was like a switch demo that tried it too and I was like, this is the future. I think you're just a little too early to it.

Chuck Carpenter: [54:40] It's still alive for now. And I got like a free pro subscription with AT&T. So I bought like one game and then otherwise I just try out whatever is free in the month.

Eric Bailey: [54:51] Nice. Yeah, I used to do a lot of Ishio and Steam and stuff like that. And I'm going to show my age here. I got into computers by building them first so I could play like, Half Life. And then I kind of got sick of building computers and I switched over to Mac and whittled my options down.

Robbie Wagner: [55:11] Yeah, same.

Chuck Carpenter: [55:12] That is exactly what happened to me. I got into tech through building computers and trying to hack stuff around and I was always trying to fix something. So then just one day I got lended a Mac and I was like, Oh, I can just do stuff. Okay. Seems good.

Robbie Wagner: [55:29] Yeah, I then took that and built a Hackintosh trying to do that afterwards. And it worked for a while, but it works until it doesn't. And then you're like, I should just use a Mac.

Eric Bailey: [55:39] Exactly.

Chuck Carpenter: [55:40] I did that because I had one that was like Dell minis and I wanted like a small footprint. So I was like, traveling in Europe for seven months. So I did a Hackintosh for all of that and it was fine during the seven-month period. But you're always like, don't do any updates and don't mess with anything for now.

Eric Bailey: [55:58] My buddy has a Hackintosh that he's like brought forward from 2015 into 2022 and at this point it's like.

Robbie Wagner: [56:05] Wow.

Eric Bailey: [56:06] It's like watching somebody operate like an Espresso machine because the amount of weird rituals and stand clear of the scalding steam. But it works. I have no idea how, but it belongs in a museum.

Chuck Carpenter: [56:21] Right like seven years. That's a testament because.

Eric Bailey: [56:27] He just keeps jamming ram into it and keeps asking for more.

Robbie Wagner: [56:33] Nice. All right, we're at a time here. Is there anything we didn't cover, anything you want to plug or let people know about before we end here?

Chuck Carpenter: [56:40] I mean, first, thank you for the opportunity. I've listened to you all before, so it's nice to be a face on it or a voice. And the accessibility project is a11yproject.com. We have a checklist, which is kind of a quick one stop shop for some common accessibility issues written in plain language. We also have some posts and some resources, and we are also open source and we pay for articles. So if you are interested in contributing, we'd love to have you. We work with Git as well as not Git, if that's not your strong suite suit speech. Wow. Great. Cool. I can do it.

Chuck Carpenter: [57:22] Whiskey is good.

Eric Bailey: [57:23] Yeah, Whiskey is good. And the other thing is, you don't have to feel like you are an expert in either the field of technology or accessibility. We want to hear from a diverse range of voices, and that can include learning about disability and accessibility and your perspective, which is very important. That's my plug, and I'm sticking to it.

Robbie Wagner: [57:44] Nice.

Chuck Carpenter: [57:45] Awesome. Thank you so much.

Robbie Wagner: [57:47] Yeah. You want to end this Chuck?

Chuck Carpenter: [57:48] I don't remember what you say for the end.

Robbie Wagner: [57:50] All right, whatever. We'll have bad audio. Thanks, everybody, for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe and we'll catch you guys next time.

Chuck Carpenter: [58:00] Thanks for listening to Whiskey Web and Whatnot. This podcast is brought to you Ship Shape and produced by Podcast Royale. If you like this episode, consider sharing it with a friend or two and leave us a rating, maybe a review, as long as it's good.

Robbie Wagner: [58:15] You can subscribe to future episodes on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more info about Ship Shape and the show, check out our website at shipshape.io.