Aug. 4, 2022

Conventional Commits vs. Release-It and Chatting About the Changelog

There are two types of engineers. The “normal” ones who strive to make their day-to-day lives as easy as possible and the Robbie’s of the world who strive to do everything themselves until the last line of code is sealed in a changelog. 

On that note, do you prefer conventional commits? Or the tools out there that make organization easier and, sometimes, automated? Chuck and Robbie don’t see eye-to-eye on this particular topic so prepare yourself for the mildest smackdown of the century.

In this episode, Chuck and Robbie discuss the pros and cons of release-it, the beauty of working system-agnostic, why Robbie prefers the changelog, and an attempt to stay abreast of frameworks like fresh coming into focus. 


Key Takeaways

  • [00:33] - A whiskey review - Howler Head Banana Whiskey.
  • [09:12] - A mild smackdown on conventional commits versus release-it. 
  • [15:23] - Why Chuck and Robbie prefer the changelog. 
  • [20:35] - What is fresh? And Robbie leaks some internal R&D.
  • [26:42] - What Robbie thinks about the Chevy Blazer EV and SUVs in general.
  • [44:55] - How Chuck and his family acquired a Recall box. 



[09:55] - “I don’t dislike release-it. Let’s be clear there. I just don’t want to have to physically do anything beyond opening the pull request and closing the pull request.” ~ @CharlesWthe3rd

[13:01] - “I’m not a big fan of conventional commits because it adds a lot of noise to your commit log.” ~ @rwwagner90

[15:06] - “I just think that you [Robbie] are different than a lot of engineers in that you’re like, ‘I want to touch and do all the things for all 16 jobs, I just want to do it myself and make sure it hits to the end’ and other engineers are like, ‘what script can I write to never do this again?’” ~ @CharlesWthe3rd




Connect with our hosts


Subscribe and stay in touch


Top-Tier, Full-Stack Software Consultants

This show is brought to you by Ship Shape. Ship Shape’s software consultants solve complex software and app development problems with top-tier coding expertise, superior service, and speed. In a sea of choices, our senior-level development crew rises above the rest by delivering the best solutions for fintech, cybersecurity, and other fast-growing industries. Check us out at


Robbie Wagner: [00:09] What's going on, everybody? Welcome to another Whiskey Web and Whatnot with myself, Robert William Wagner I, and your favorite cohost. Charles William Carpenter III.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:22] I'm also the only co-host, though, right? Like I'm the only option for co-hosts.

Robbie Wagner: [00:27] Well, yeah. Just wanted to say different words than I always say.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:31] Fair enough.

Robbie Wagner: [00:34] So today is different in many ways. We usually buy whiskies that we're really excited about and think will be pretty good. And they are a little more expensive than I might buy myself usually, but we did not do that this time. We have the Howler Head banana whiskey, which says on the bottle it is guaranteed not to contain apeshit. So that's good.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:58] Yeah. What about monkeys, though? Like, are apes monkeys?  It could have monkey shit. It's got monkey spirit in it.

Robbie Wagner: [01:04] That is true.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:05] Says Howler Head Monkey Spirit. So they captured the spirit of a monkey in here? I haven't decided if that's a good or bad thing, but yeah, the idea of straight bourbon whiskey with natural banana flavor doesn't sound great to me. I mean, it's not like cinnamon flavor or some of those weird ones, but still.

Robbie Wagner: [01:23] Yeah. It's not a flavor that lends itself to whiskey usually, I wouldn't think.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:27] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [01:28] It even says somewhere, I think on the back that's like, let's see. Yeah, people said we were monkeying around. They said convention is not to be trifled with. We heard them. There are full cities of people not trifling with convention. For the rest of us, welcome to the jungle. So they're purposefully doing something different.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:45] Yeah. So 80 proof, 40% alcohol. We don't know anything about mash bill of the base, but I guess really doesn't matter when you're flavoring it.

Robbie Wagner: [01:53] No.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:54] So.

Robbie Wagner: [01:54] Yeah. The things you need to know are they partner with the UFC, and it's kind of owned by Dana White, but I couldn't really figure that out. He's in charge, but another brand, like Wooler Brands, owns, makes, and distributes the whiskey or something like that.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:13] Who's Dana White? How about that? I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [02:15] He's the guy that started the UFC.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:19] Yeah. No, I watch one Sport. I'm not really interested in any other.

Robbie Wagner: [02:24] Yeah, I don't know much about the UFC either. I just know of him because one, a famous guy named Dana, tends to be something that you remember, but yeah, so I've seen pictures of him. He's pretty big. Looks like he would be a fighting guy.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:42] Okay, fair enough. I was like, did you get that right? Did you mean Vanna White or Dana Carvey or...

Robbie Wagner: [02:49] No.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:50] Someone else I've actually heard of? No. Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [02:52] No, I'm pretty sure I got that right. Anyway, let's try it out.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:56] Let's have it. Let's get this over with.

Robbie Wagner: [03:04] I figure even if it's terrible, I can use it to, like, flambe bananas for desserts and stuff.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:10] Yeah, that's true. It would be kind of a neat Bananas Foster sort of thing.

Robbie Wagner: [03:15] But fun fact, my favorite flavor is fake banana. So, unfortunately, this is real bananas. But I might like it.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:24] Right? Well, the smell is very banana-forward.

Robbie Wagner: [03:28] But also, like, musty. Maybe that's just the whiskey trying to get past the banana.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:33] Yeah, like when you approach it, it's got a little bit of paint thinner, but then it gets real banana.

Robbie Wagner: [03:38] Yeah, like it smells like a popsicle that someone poured a bunch of whiskey into.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:38] Well, it's not horrible. It's a flavored whiskey. Yeah. I don't know. I almost feel like I'd take this to a party. Kind of like, how funny guys, let's all have some of this. But I wouldn't get home from work, start cooking a nice steak and pour myself a glass of it. That's not what I would do.

Robbie Wagner: [04:09] Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's surprisingly good for what it is, and it knows it's not like the highest quality whiskey. It's not trying to be. And I get that. I think it's good as a novelty, and I didn't want to spit it out. I think it's fine. It's just not the world's best whiskey.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:27] So know how we've been splitting up now and comparing Whiskies based on type, whatever. So I guess in the flavored whiskey category, we really only have two. I guess there's like, others we've had outside of the show.

Robbie Wagner: [04:42] Yeah, we'll have to be fair and do them all on the show so we can have a losers bracket of flavored whiskies and see what wins that?

Chuck Carpenter: [04:51] I can tell you that Fireball is pretty far down the line for me. That stuff is gross. It's meant to when you're dead, keep your insides preserved so that you can have a funeral or whatever you're doing. And that's kinda it. I've seen the Jim Beam, like, green apple or something before, but I dare not try it.

Robbie Wagner: [00:05:11.730] Yeah, we used to do a lot of cherry whiskey and mix it with coke. That was pretty good.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:18] Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [05:18] I mean, good for college and we don't know what good whiskey is.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:22] Yeah, this isn't good whiskey. It's been masked by both this cherry flavor and coke is what you mean. I wonder what this would be like with coke. That would be interesting.

Robbie Wagner: [05:33] It's actually on their website. I looked earlier. They're like, we recommend having this with coke, or they had a few cocktail options.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:39] Yeah, okay, reasonable. Maybe I'd look at that and do some banana-y cocktail. But in that realm of things, which includes this disgusting maple one, I'm going to give this a if I had to get a flavored whiskey I would get this one. I think so I guess that makes it like a seven.

Robbie Wagner: [05:56] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:57] Just because I mostly just don't want a flavored whiskey. But if I had to this one's actually pretty high up there. It's tasty.

Robbie Wagner: [06:04] Yeah, I tend to agree. Actually, I'm a big fan of the banana flavor. It's really good. It's basically like any other flavored spirit, but it's like, got that little hint of whiskey. Like, I don't know if this would be better if it were just vodka and bananas, but.

Chuck Carpenter: [06:22] That's true.

Robbie Wagner: [06:22] But I don't hate it. Probably not. I think it's good. I'll give it a seven as well. I'm pleased. I think there are a lot of flavored whiskeys that can be ranked way below this.

Chuck Carpenter: [06:32] Exactly. That's how I feel about it. Pretty much most flavored whiskies I shy away from. So having been forced into this one, I'm like, okay, that's not bad. I will finish this. It's only a 40% alcohol, too, so it's a little lower. Maybe if it had a little burn, I might like that. I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [06:51] Yeah, I mean, you could, like, mix this a little bit with I don't know what you'd mix it with, but make popsicles out of it. That'd be pretty yummy.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:00] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [07:00] Maybe like a boozy slushy.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:03] Well, yes, but you'd have to really water it down or something because alcohol doesn't freeze.

Robbie Wagner: [07:09] I know. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't know what you would mix it with, but.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:12] Yeah, it could be interesting. Do one of those, like, chocolate frozen bananas, and then drizzle a little of this over top. Give it a little.

Robbie Wagner: [07:19] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:20] I don't know we'll see.

Robbie Wagner: [07:21] All good things.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:21] We'll have to do a follow-up show and see if either of us come up with a clever recipe with which to use this that is a little more advanced than pour in glass, consume.

Robbie Wagner: [07:31] Yeah. I do think having a scoop of ice cream and just mixing it up really fast. So that would be pretty good, I think.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:38] Yeah. Or just drizzle that's a thing in some places where they drizzle, like, Amaros or whatever over ice cream and. You can do that.

Robbie Wagner: [07:47] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:47] You take, like, limoncello, right?

Robbie Wagner: [07:49] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:49] Drizzle that over an ice cream. So this is the way I think of that. This is a little bit like maybe this is like American Amaro in a way. The light thing I don't know how they put the banana in. So I'll have to dig deeper into that very golden color. Urine-like, almost.

Robbie Wagner: [08:06] Yeah. I have no idea.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:10] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [08:11] I'm very pleasantly surprised with this one.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:14] Right, that's good for you, because you made it happen.

Robbie Wagner: [08:18] Yeah. So if anyone has suggestions, I guess no one has ever suggested well, a couple of people suggested a few whiskies. I can't say no one has ever, but people frequently do not. So if you have, like, a flavored whiskey that you've found is not terrible, let us know on Twitter, because we would like to add some to our lineup and try them out.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:35] Is that Ship Shape Code Twitter, or do we have a Whiskey Web and Whatnot Twitter?

Robbie Wagner: [08:39] Yeah. At Shipshapecode.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:41] At Shipshapecode. Thank you. You want to talk about anything seriously? Quasi serious?

Robbie Wagner: [08:49] Talk about seriously things?

Chuck Carpenter: [08:51] Yes, seriously things.

Robbie Wagner: [08:52] Seriously things.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:53] Speak about things seriously rather than jokingly.

Robbie Wagner: [08:56] Are the things serious or just our manner of delivery serious?

Chuck Carpenter: [08:59] Why not both? Probably just the things yeah, I can't be held accountable for any serious discussion.

Robbie Wagner: [09:08] Fair.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:09] You never know which way I mean it.

Robbie Wagner: [09:11] So, yeah, we're light on the tech this time as people have probably noticed ten minutes into this podcast, we don't have a guest. So there's no specific topics that lend themselves to this episode. But I have a list of topics and we decided that one we could talk about is conventional commits versus like labeling or other things that you use to organize your things to make a change log, do releases, do all that kind of stuff. So there are definitely several tools for this, both automated and manual. I know that I use Release It! a lot and I know that Chuck dislikes Release It!

Chuck Carpenter: [09:55] I don't dislike Release It! Now, let's be clear there. I just don't want to have to physically do anything beyond opening the pull request and closing the pull request. So you mentioned here conventional commits, which is an interesting thing to enforce language to influence change logs and to say we have a common language, right? It's like, well, we have a common vernacular, but it can be really annoying because sometimes I just want to do a commit that is like random experiment, not sure, squash it down later and who cares? So I like having the PR description and title and stuff be kind of like, this is the commit that goes into a change log. So I like the idea of labels because here we go. Let me label this major, minor patch. Whatever it goes into, automation reads the label, it does its thing. If that's Release It! Cool. If that's something else, cool. Like that part of it not being able to get Released It! to work for me in automation has been the annoying part.

Robbie Wagner: [11:00] Yeah, I think I want to say that Release It! could do those things, but I don't fully understand why. Because we use I believe it's like Lerna change log, something with Release It! So it will generate the change log for you and it'll say what's breaking, what's not. So if it has those labels and it knows there's a breaking change, why does it not make that leap to auto-increment the version to a major version?

Chuck Carpenter: [11:31] Yeah, I think there's some GitHub actions that can do some of that. I'm not sure that there's some command line tools that can do that, but I believe I haven't tried to implement, but I think I've seen GitHub actions that will read the pull request labels and then kind of know some things what to do. Like when you merge, it's part of CI and it's going to say, great, I'm going to do a release here, blah blah blah.

Robbie Wagner: [11:54] So are those custom things or is it like AI, a semantic release bot or something? That's the one I think most people use right? You know what I'm talking about?

Chuck Carpenter: [12:07] Yeah, I think so. The semantic release is going to increment your version in that way and then also do the release for that. Yeah, based on your tag or whatever.

Robbie Wagner: [12:19] And what is this new one? You sent me one earlier. Did you read much about that or did you just find it?

Chuck Carpenter: [12:23] No, I think I saw it on Hacker News recently. It is pretty new but I liked it was just called release. And then there was some funny in the show Hacker News thing about "O release, sweet release". But it does use like a conventional commits spec. It will run a publishing script. It seems similar. It analyzes commits since the last published release determines next package version based on conventional commit spec. Conventional commits still kind of relies on humans and humans typing strings in the language we all agreed on. But what if somebody goes rogue?

Robbie Wagner: [13:01] Yeah, I'm not a big fan of conventional commits because it adds a lot of noise to your commit log because it's like chore bug or I guess not bug fix, whatever all the and I never remember what all the things are and then it's like if you want to get the thing right and you use the wrong one. I had some problems with this with the client where everything was automated. Right. So if you use the wrong thing it'll release the wrong type of version. I think I used fix where it was supposed to be like a minor version instead or something and then that threw us off and we had to do another manual release afterwards or something. So I kind of like that check if I'm running it manually. I can see it's going to be this version. Go ahead and do your thing.

Chuck Carpenter: [13:48] Yeah, but the boss syndrome on that is pretty bad.

Robbie Wagner: [13:52] Yeah, I mean that's part of my personality is just I like to be in charge of things.

Chuck Carpenter: [13:57] Right.

Robbie Wagner: [13:58] So I should probably get better about figuring out what types of automation I could do for those things.

Chuck Carpenter: [14:04] You know, to quote someone that we heard this today and she mentioned it before, it's just bear in mind everything you say yes to doing, you're saying no to something else. So that's fine if you prioritize that.

Robbie Wagner: [14:17] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [14:17] Right. So you're going to take the time to check and do a release and blah, blah, blah, and whatever else. But guess what? You could be just doing something else.

Robbie Wagner: [14:24] True.

Chuck Carpenter: [14:24] You're like, my fix is in. I'm going to take the next ten minutes and pivot, change context, make an espresso, who knows?

Robbie Wagner: [14:31] Yeah. So I'll just quit all the things and open a whiskey library. Then we won't have to worry about it anymore.

Chuck Carpenter: [14:37] Maybe that's it. Hey, we should open Middleburg's first whiskey library.

Robbie Wagner: [14:42] I don't know if Middleburg is the best place for it. We'll come back to this in whatnot.

Chuck Carpenter: [14:46] Okay, fair. Put a pin in it.

Robbie Wagner: [14:48] Yeah, but let's see, what else what did we miss talking about here?

Chuck Carpenter: [14:52] It's funny, that wasn't quite the smack down that you thought it was going to be. We're going to argue about this thing.

Robbie Wagner: [14:58] I think we agree with each other's points on both sides. It's not a completely polarizing thing, it's just different preferences.

Chuck Carpenter: [15:06] I just think that you are different than a lot of engineers and that you're like, I want to touch and do all the things for all 16 jobs. Just want to do it myself and make sure it gets to the end. And other engineers are like, what script can I write so I'll never do this again?

Robbie Wagner: [15:22] Yeah. So in terms of change logs, though, so the new one that you had found, that release one, said it uses just GitHub release notes and does not generate change logs. Like when you find a new repo or I guess maybe not a new repo because you don't care about what changed, but a repo you've been using. Right. And you want to update the version. Do you go to the release first or the change log first?

Chuck Carpenter: [15:46] I think it depends. I think I'm more apt out of habit to go through a change log at the root. Right. And I don't have to read it on GitHub. That's the other thing. I can read it locally and Pool Master or main and then read right there. That's kind of nice. GitHub actions can be useful. They're hard to build and test and all that kind of stuff. But in the end, it's kind of nice having some of that colocated. But there are parts of me now that our entire ecosystem is within Microsoft now we pick up all these tools and use the ease of use of that. And so it's not really system agnostic. And I do prefer, why can't I do some stuff in GitLab or spin up my own GitLab? I don't know. It feels like I'm getting very tied into the only way I can do work is in this way, and that's where I have a challenge. So in that sense, it's not hard or bad to go into the GitHub release and read stuff there. And I've done that before. If I don't see a change log at the root or whatever. But now I'm very tied into GitHub, organizes their app in a particular way and you have to go there to do it. And if I push my repo somewhere else, for example, for whatever reason, well, I'm kind of not now I'm locked, I'm locked into that system.

Robbie Wagner: [17:14] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [17:14] So that's probably my only negative against that. So prefer the change log? Yeah, because I want to just read it locally.

Robbie Wagner: [17:23] So I have several reasons I prefer the change log. I think one is similar to what you were saying. I'm just used to it. That's where everyone had it before. So I checked the root and it's usually there what people have been doing recently, which is super annoying to me just because I have to do multiple clicks is like they have a change log and you click it and it says, go to releases for release notes. And I'm like, well, if you just didn't have the change log, I would have by default check the releases. So now I have to click multiple times. But what I hate about releases is you go in, right, and say this library has like ten versions, and I'm on an app that hasn't been updated in five years. So we're on version two. I'm going to have to page through the releases for a long time to get back to where I was to see what the breaking changes for version three are. Page back to four, see what the breaking changes are there, page back. Whereas the change log, I can just scroll and see it all and it's right there.

Chuck Carpenter: [18:21] Yeah, it's a lot more searchable, too, right? Like we just want to search and try to jump to you. That's another good case. Although I've seen ones where the change log is only the most recent release and then there's like a second file where it has the rest of them. It's a little weird.

Robbie Wagner: [18:40] Yeah. I wonder if that's an artifact from I honestly forgot what we used to use before Release It!, but there was a I think it was like GitHub change log generator or something like that. And your existing change log was like a different I forget what it was called, but then when you would generate, it would like, copy that contents and add the new one and make a new file or something. So maybe it's something with that. I don't know.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:09] Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't know why that gets better. Like you just can't append to in perpetuity.

Robbie Wagner: [19:15] I don't know. But yeah, I think it's super annoying also when people with the I guess it's not Ember specific. So any mono repo where you have a change log. Right. So you have your root, which is going to have a change log, which is going to say, go to the package and look at the change log.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:32] Right.

Robbie Wagner: [19:32] Which is super annoying, but I guess makes sense if you had enough packages. It doesn't make sense in the Ember context because your add-on is just one package, but you have these other packages for like, testing and docs. So I don't care about their change log. I'd only want the root one to be the thing I care about.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:51] But that's just your context. Maybe someone else's story is different there.

Robbie Wagner: [19:55] Yeah, no, anything I ever say is like, I'm probably in the minority on and I'm just not correct. But that's fine. It's my opinion.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:03] Yeah, I mean, wait till you find out that we're going to have to write an app in Fresh on Deno or Dino.

Robbie Wagner: [20:10] Dino, right. Because it's the little dinosaurs' the mascot.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:13] Dino. Yeah, but it's an E, right? Dee-no, Deh-no.

Robbie Wagner: [20:18] Yeah. How is Dino from the cartoon spelled?

Chuck Carpenter: [20:22] What cartoon?

Robbie Wagner: [20:23] The Flintstones. Dino is the dog. That's why it's the little.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:27] I always thought it was just D-I-N-O like Dino. But Dino.

Robbie Wagner: [20:31] It might be. I don't know. Let's see. Google knows. I'm checking.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:34] We really got into somewhat not quickly on that one, but yeah, Fresh. So Fresh is supposed to be super fast and very next-like.

Robbie Wagner: [20:42] Yeah, it is D-I-N-O. Yeah. So, yes, Dee-no should be Deh-no, but whatever.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:48] Okay, so there you go. Anyway, I've seen some talks with the guy who made it, so I think Dee-no is how he says it? What's he know? He made a note. He made this thing. Somebody else makes other things. I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [21:03] Yeah, it's just Node with the letters rearranged.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:06] Yes, exactly. But yeah, Fresh do some Fresh with hooks. Or StarBeam. Do Fresh with StarBeam.

Robbie Wagner: [21:14] Yeah. What is Fresh? You sent it and I read it and I already forgot.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:18] It is another framework, but.

Robbie Wagner: [21:21] I know that.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:22] Yes, and it's set up, with people have been talking about it, so I don't know that much about it but.

Robbie Wagner: [21:27] Is it like Astro, where it's like.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:30] No, no.

Robbie Wagner: [21:31] Trying to not ship JavaScript.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:33] No, it's definitely not that. It's a next-generation web framework built for speed, reliability, and simplicity.

Robbie Wagner: [21:38] It says ZeroJS is sent to the client by default.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:42] Well, then, there you go.

Robbie Wagner: [21:43] So it's partially like Astro.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:47] Yeah, because it's got the island hydration thing.

Robbie Wagner: [21:49] But partially more like Remix or something, I think. No, JS is shipped to the client because a shitload of JS runs on the server.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:58] Right.

Robbie Wagner: [21:58] I think is what they're saying.

Chuck Carpenter: [22:00] And then instead of using, like, Node or Yarn, it's using Dino. Deh-no, Dee-no. I don't know what to say or think anymore. I mean, it's got a lemon. So it does look very fresh.

Robbie Wagner: [22:14] And you can, at a minimum, build a counter where if you hit plus or minus, it changes the number. That's all I know about it.

Chuck Carpenter: [22:23] Right. Not your typical to-do application, for example. Yeah, but I mean, I don't know. It's interesting. It does dynamic routing, which I like that. I mean the whole. As our friend Charles said recently, the whole problem with React is everything has a component. Like, my router is a component, my state handlers component. I don't know, it's like, too much. Get off my lawn.

Robbie Wagner: [22:48] Yeah, I like having a little structure. So I don't know, I would have to see some of these docs. They do have let's see, creating a route. Is this a component? This shows Preact. I'm guessing you could use React as well. Yeah, they're just components. I mean, they're functions. So is it a component? I don't know. I guess.

Chuck Carpenter: [23:07] I don't think so. Dynamic route is just oh, it's in a route folder versus pages. But it utilizes your structure as automatic routing, so routing pages, more information about dynamic routes. Yeah, I mean, it seems all good.

Robbie Wagner: [23:23] I say use effect and use state amount. Done.

Chuck Carpenter: [23:26] You don't have to use state, though. I mean, your app was to run with that. So if you thought about it and wanted to use some other state management pattern and package, then you could do that. So do this in StarBeam and see what you get.

Robbie Wagner: [23:40] Yeah, I'm open to trying it. I think there's just so many choices. It's hard to figure out. Unless you go with the big players that you've heard of, like Next or Remix or whatever, people are really on board for all the others we would have to try out, and I have no idea how they work.

Chuck Carpenter: [23:59] Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say. They come out too fast for us to be able to try them.

Robbie Wagner: [24:03] Yup.

Robbie Wagner: [24:04] And even if they didn't, we don't have the time to try them.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:07] Right, exactly. Give me six months. Still not enough time.

Robbie Wagner: [24:12] When we build this new coworking app, we'll have different employees all do a different framework and build like, a hello world app thing for getting us started on this. And then we'll see what the code looks like, what their speed is, what the DX is, and make a decision.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:31] Perfect.

Robbie Wagner: [24:31] Or we'll just use NextJS.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:33] Yeah, and you just leaked some internal R and D.

Robbie Wagner: [24:39] Hey, I don't know anything about the app. I mean, people can know we're building one. There's a million coworking apps out there.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:46] Yeah. Which one do we use?

Robbie Wagner: [24:47] We use Optics.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:48] Optics.

Robbie Wagner: [24:49] Purely because their dashboard does not look like trash.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:54] I mean, the optics matter. They're not kidding.

Robbie Wagner: [24:57] Yeah, no. Like, most of them, their marketing site is really nice. If you sign up as a user, your experience is really nice, but then the person managing the space, it's like 1995 HTML and CSS, like, terrible garbage, look, like, impossible to use, very power user heavy. So it might have more features, but unless you have a 500-person coworking space like some people may, I want the nice fresh look, and this should look nice, and I should enjoy being there.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:28] Yeah, that's true. So you don't want to write it in Drupal?

Robbie Wagner: [25:31] No, definitely not.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:32] Turns out fair enough. Suit yourself.

Robbie Wagner: [25:35] Although Drupal uses Shepherd now, so no hate.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:38] So we support Drupal. I used to work for Acquia, and it's very complex CMS. That's all. Yeah, that's really that statement. It's a very complex CMS where there's a lot of onboarding and designing your entities.

Robbie Wagner: [25:53] Yeah. I would love a project where I need to use one of these new CMSs like Contentful. I always get it confused. Is it Prisma is the GraphQL thing. Right?

Chuck Carpenter: [26:06] Prisma is just an ORM.

Robbie Wagner: [26:08] Whatever, the data thing.

Chuck Carpenter: [26:10] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [26:11] Prismic, I believe, is the CMS.

Chuck Carpenter: [26:14] Right? I think that's true.

Robbie Wagner: [26:15] Let me check.

Chuck Carpenter: [26:16] There's a new one that's open source content. It's like Contentful headless open source, though. Let's see here.

Robbie Wagner: [26:25] Yeah, Prismic is the one yeah, there's a few that seem pretty cool, but I just haven't had a use case for it. You would need a static marketing site kind of, that you need people to be able to edit the content or something. And I haven't really had that.

Chuck Carpenter: [26:42] You know what I did see today, and I'm not overly excited about. A slight tangent, they released the Chevy Blazer EV. What do you think about that? Just like on the surface.

Robbie Wagner: [26:56] What's the Blazer? Is that the little truck?

Chuck Carpenter: [26:59] No, it's not a truck. It's an SUV. And I'd say it's a midsize SUV. Typically.

Robbie Wagner: [27:04] Everyone has like 15 midsize SUVs, so it's hard to keep track of them. Does it have a third row? I guess not. If it's mid-size.

Chuck Carpenter: [27:13] That's a great question. I don't know. I mean, they lost me pretty early on. I looked at it. The design is very futuristic. Payload CMS boys and girls. And they them. Anyone else interested? That's the CMS that is supposed to be very Contentful like, but it is open source.

Robbie Wagner: [27:35] Oh, yeah. This Blazer EV looks like trash.

Chuck Carpenter: [27:40] I was being nice. I'm like, it's not for me. That's all. It's just not for me.

Robbie Wagner: [27:45] So, as you know, I'm opinionated about most things, and my opinion of SUVs is they should be SUVs. Okay. I haven't looked at more than what came up in the first few images in Google, so maybe I don't know, but it looks to me like a really stretched-out station wagon. Like, not very tall, very mid-sized, and stretched. Like, we took a car and we kind of stretched it out to kind of call it an SUV because we wanted to have better range. And we don't want it to be like a full-on tall SUV that you could actually comfortably sit in and carry stuff in. Because we care about the range and we care about whatever for whatever restrictions they have. I want someone to just come in and say, I got this huge SUV. I don't care what the range is. If I need to, I'll just bolt a ton of batteries on or whatever. It's just full size. I can carry things in it. I can carry people in it. Everyone sits comfortably. It's not like, oh, this third row has like two inches of legroom or whatever. Just make the thing fit people and stuff.

Chuck Carpenter: [28:49] Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [28:49] It's not hard.

Chuck Carpenter: [28:51] Well, you know, I'm going to address that, but I want to first counter that with so what you're admitting is that the Model X, Tesla Model X is not an SUV. It's a minivan.

Robbie Wagner: [29:03] Oh, it's 100%, not an SUV.

Chuck Carpenter: [29:05] Yes, it's a minivan.

Robbie Wagner: [29:06] It's not anything, really. It's a car that they stretched a tiny, tiny bit. Like if you park it next to even someone's mid-size SUV, like a Blazer or whatever, it looks tiny. It is a car. It is not an SUV. They just figured out a way to put more seats in the back with no leg room and say, oh yeah, it's an SUV. You could just like, yeah, no, they did that. So that it was a marketing distinction to say, like, we're the first electric SUV and all these awards for SUV, but it's not an SUV.

Chuck Carpenter: [29:38] Yeah, exactly. There may be some sport to it, but marginal utility.

Robbie Wagner: [29:42] Yes.

Chuck Carpenter: [29:43] Right. So test drove a Rivian, but it was the R1T, not the R1S this past weekend. Yeah, the Ss aren't delivered here yet or really anywhere. Apparently, they're delivering in the next couple of months, like the first ones. But they won't be in Phoenix. They'll probably be in California.

Robbie Wagner: [30:03] After they started deliveries on them, I think it was like two or three months in, they delivered one to their chief marketing officer or something. And I went, okay, if it's months in and you're just getting it to this person, it's going to be a long time before we get one.

Chuck Carpenter: [30:21] So the emails we got say that, but like, oh, next year, anytime, like first half, six months. But the people at the service center, delivery center, at least here in Phoenix, they seem to feel like they are scaling up production. So deliveries are going to really start to happen more in like the next couple of months. Not necessarily for me, more for like California and stuff.

Robbie Wagner: [30:47] So they are delivering them. Just there's a bigger list of people wanting them, I guess than we thought.

Chuck Carpenter: [30:52] Maybe there's a real big list and then they're trying to like so there's different things too, that help you in production batches. It's sort of like, okay, I'm in the southwest, I got white with a black interior and the middle battery and this package that's going to be faster than if you got the ocean interior or if you ship some other stuff, certain colors, and stuff. So they're batching them, they're scaling up production, batching them out, and then going like that. So she seems to think like late this year or early next year is about when we probably expected.

Robbie Wagner: [31:24] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [31:25] So my problem is I really like what they have. I think they have gone way, way too fast. Even though they're really slow, they haven't paid attention to the detail from a marketing perspective. So you go to their website, nothing says the little thing on the armrest in the middle is an induction charger. But it is. I would want to see more step through of all these cool things. But they don't highlight that. They're like, here's a picture of it, you can buy it if you want. I think they're missing the point on a lot of things. And I think someone like Range Rover or something if they redesign the whole thing to be EV, have some cool stuff like that, call it out and make their price point not that much higher. Dead. Why would you ever buy something from someone who hasn't made cars ever, versus someone that's made cars for decades?

Chuck Carpenter: [32:16] Yeah, well, that aside, and if somebody comes to market sooner, perhaps that would challenge this. But I think you're going to really like it. It's roomy, it's big. It drives, like the thing that my wife doesn't like about it. She's like. It's really very detailed and well thought out, and there's so much space and everything else, but it drives a lot like a truck. That's what you want, I'm like. Right.

Robbie Wagner: [32:40] It's a truck. Right.

Chuck Carpenter: [32:43] So we have a Q7, and it's like it's got capacity, but it's more sporty and that kind of thing. And she's like, this drives like a truck.

Robbie Wagner: [32:51] But it can do the crab walk circle thing.

Chuck Carpenter: [32:53] No, it can't. That's been disabled.

Robbie Wagner: [32:55] Oh, it can't?

Robbie Wagner: [32:56] Yeah. Tank turn. So it's got a tank turn. And apparently, there was some I don't know, she said that they got because it kind of destroys the ground when it does that. So they got some pushback on it. So it's been software disabled.

Robbie Wagner: [33:08] Okay. So we can.

Chuck Carpenter: [33:09] Functionally.

Robbie Wagner: [33:10] Jailbreak it and turn it back on.

Chuck Carpenter: [33:12] Yeah, exactly. Because that was definitely a selling point. But, like, they are really so it's roomy, it's powerful. I mean, the zero to 60 is very serious. I think it's like 3 seconds.

Robbie Wagner: [33:24] Do you feel like you're sitting in a living room?

Chuck Carpenter: [33:26] No, it's not ember big.

Robbie Wagner: [33:27] I don't mean real big. I mean like, your legs, instead of being kind of straight out, are like 100%, 90-degree angle sitting up. You know what I mean? Like sitting in a real chair versus a car.

Chuck Carpenter: [33:40] Yeah. I would say that it's pretty high. You can adjust, obviously, the air suspension anywhere from I think 9.5 inches is the lowest in sport mode. And then in off-road mode, it goes all the way up to, like, 15 inches. So it's got pretty decent clearance. I think it's eleven and a half. Or it's just standard all road height. You can adjust a lot of that stuff. It's got 19 speakers.

Robbie Wagner: [34:01] Wow.

Chuck Carpenter: [34:02] So the stereo system is, like, pretty crazy and nice. So much storage. You were talking about, like, the center console. A woman could put a regular-sized purse in there easily. 

Robbie Wagner: [34:13] Does it have a bunch of layers of things that move around in there for the storage, or is it just one big hole?

Chuck Carpenter: [34:19] It's kind of just one big hole.

Robbie Wagner: [34:20] Okay. Because the Model X has like that big hole is covered with your cup holders and stuff.

Chuck Carpenter: [34:26] Oh, yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [34:27] And they slide out of the way, and then you have the big hole.

Chuck Carpenter: [34:29] No, the cup holders kind of, like, pop out of the front. You just push and they'll pop out of the thing in the front. They have, like, under the back seat. You can lift part of the back seat up and you have storage there. You have so much storage capacity all over this thing. Onboard air compressor. It's pretty, decent size.

Robbie Wagner: [34:47] The truck has a lot of cool stuff. Like, I don't know if this one had all the options and stuff. Like, you can get the kitchen. You can get I guess it's not an option. Everything has, like, the air compressor in the back, the plugs for things.

Chuck Carpenter: [35:02] Yeah, both will have those things.

Robbie Wagner: [35:04] The SUV won't have the slide-through storage, I don't think. But the truck has that.

Chuck Carpenter: [35:08] Right. It will not. And then that's where you put the camp kitchen, some other stuff. If you wanted, you actually in the truck. The middle arm comes down, and you have, like, a slide door to access that storage compartment, too. Like, say you put a cooler back there or something, you'd have access to it from the truck, but the SUV won't have that because it's got the seats and everything else.

Robbie Wagner: [35:30] So did the truck have a second row of seats?

Chuck Carpenter: [35:32] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [35:33] How were they? Did you check those out?

Chuck Carpenter: [35:35] Yeah, very comfortable. So the second row is fine. Super comfy. Tons of space there. So I would imagine the third row would have pretty decent from what it looks like from online.

Robbie Wagner: [35:46] Well, the third row is not super important. The third row mainly for us is for our dogs.

Chuck Carpenter: [35:51] Right.

Robbie Wagner: [35:52] Like, they need somewhere to sit.

Chuck Carpenter: [35:53] Yeah, I have tons of space in that. Plenty. And, I mean, they're small dogs, too, let's be honest. You toss them in the back of a Q4 and be fine, too.

Robbie Wagner: [36:03] Yeah, but they're spoiled. They like seats.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:06] Right? That's fair. And we got to see a couple of different colors, too. So I saw, like, kind of this slate gray. It almost looks like a jet fighter color, but then shiny and then saw the forest interior, whatever. It's like a green interior.

Robbie Wagner: [36:22] That's what we got for our interior.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:24] Nice.

Robbie Wagner: [36:25] Does it look cool?

Chuck Carpenter: [36:25] I didn't like it online, but in person, I was like, oh, this is cool. Okay. Yeah, I can see where this works.

Robbie Wagner: [36:31] We leaned into the like this is for camping kind of style. Like, we did that interior. We did green outside, and we did the tent on top.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:41] Wow.

Robbie WagnerLike full on Campmobile.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:44] Yeah. See that? Do you camp?

Robbie Wagner: [36:46] Not with a baby, but we did before.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:49] Prior to baby. Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [36:50] When he's a little bit older and can maybe walk around and stuff, like, we probably camp.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:55] Yeah. Well, yeah, the green is cool. And they have these they're called chill witch mats. I don't know how to describe them, but I think they're like a bamboo-like material, and it's like a neat pattern and stuff on there, and it's supposed to be, like, easy to clean and all that. It was all really nice. Just seemed really well thought out.

Robbie Wagner: [37:12] Yeah, see, that's back to what I was saying. I think they have done a really great job engineering it and thinking of that stuff, but they've done a really poor job of telling me that that stuff is there.

Chuck Carpenter: [37:23] Right.

Robbie Wagner: [37:24] I think all that's coming. They've got so much demand that it doesn't matter. So, like, until they hit a lull of demand. Why would you care about beefing up your marketing site and highlighting everything? Like, I get it, but I wish I knew more about those things without having to go see one.

Chuck Carpenter: [37:39] Well, I'm glad that we bullied them into letting us see and drive one.

Robbie Wagner: [37:44] Were they not going to let you?

Chuck Carpenter: [37:45] I mean, I asked initially because Sarah was getting a little itchy and we were driving some other stuff and gas prices up and everything else made her feel like, maybe we should make a decision here and really ultimately we drive Etron and okay it's Audi I know what I like. I like this. This is fine. Maybe I won't even like that other thing. Let's find out.

Robbie Wagner: [38:09] Right?

Chuck Carpenter: [38:09] I asked and they were like, well, not until we know your delivery window gets closer and then you do that. And I'm like, yeah, but I really need to.

Robbie Wagner: [38:17] And I think they should like, people will cancel if you don't let them see.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:20] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [38:21] I wish I knew how many pre-orders there were. Like, if it's 500,000, maybe they don't give a shit. They're like, 50,000 people cancel. I don't care. It doesn't matter.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:30] Well, they also just can't say 50,000 people can come do a test drive. I think they have to have a slight barrier to entry there. Like, you ask, they say, we're not yet, and then you ask again. A little stronger then they're like, okay.

Robbie Wagner: [38:43] Yeah. I don't know we're pretty excited about it because I think Caitlin has been watching videos of people that have gotten them and different stuff and seeing there's a lot of cool stuff. And that's how I learned about some of these cool things that they don't highlight at all. If you, like, go to the there's even, like, a bulleted feature thing of the interior, and it doesn't mention that it's an induction charger, but if you go to that picture and look at the caption of the picture, I think something alludes to it's a charger. It doesn't even say straight up it's a charger, but it's like, place for phone, like electrified or I don't know, something.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:20] That's funny.

Robbie Wagner: [39:21] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:21] Because right away when we got in, they were like, oh, stick your phone here. There you go. It charges. One of the things they highlight in person at least or they did for us.

Robbie Wagner: [39:30] Yeah. And that's a big deal. I love having places like that. And you don't have to have cords and it's nice.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:36] Yeah. It does not have CarPlay as of now.

Robbie Wagner: [39:39] Well, neither does the Tesla, so I won't be missing it.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:41] All right, fair enough. Yeah. I don't think it's like, the end of the world, but it is kind of nice.

Robbie Wagner: [39:46] Yeah. Is there a Spotify app for the Rivian? Because if it has that, it's all I need.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:53] Yes, it has the Spotify app integrated. Good to go there. And I do think there's an appeal to being like, a part of the early adopters club. Kind of cool.

Robbie Wagner: [40:03] Yeah. And we're grandfathered into the old pricing. By the time we get it, I'm sure it will be, like, 200 grand for a vehicle.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:09] Right, exactly. I know I almost said this era, like, we should just get it and flip it. We'd still make.

Robbie Wagner: [40:14] Yeah. I don't think we're going to cancel ours even if we decide we're going to get something else, because I do think you'll be able to flip it pretty easily.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:20] Right? Yeah. Seems kind of worthwhile.

Robbie Wagner: [40:23] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:24] Regardless, it was a nice experience. Seems pretty cool if you like the feel of a truck. It feels like that. The regeneration is pretty strong on it, though. Like, very serious. Like, you don't need to touch the brake at all. You just have to really be careful how much you're feathering the accelerator. I was about to say gas, but that doesn't exist.

Robbie Wagner: [40:44] That's how the Tesla is.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:45] Yeah. I mean, mine has that regen, too, but not to, like, this degree. This was like jerk you. So strong.

Robbie Wagner: [40:53] Yeah, it's pretty bad. I think it's adjustable on the Tesla, but I think we probably have it on max or whatever. And yeah, I never use the brake, basically, unless there's, like, something runs out in front of you and you need to really stop. Which makes it hard when I'm driving the truck because it has the complete opposite. You have got to put all of your weight onto the brake or you're not going to stop.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:12] Yeah. Do you have, like, power assist brakes or anything?

Robbie Wagner: [41:15] No.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:16] Sure you don't have power steering?

Robbie Wagner: [41:17] No, I do have power steering.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:18] Really?

Robbie Wagner: [41:19] But I don't have power brakes, so the brakes are really tough. Someone at some point decided they hated life enough to put in power steering.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:28] Right. Yeah. That's the very opposite to, like, some of the are they drum brakes?

Robbie Wagner: [41:33] The rear is and the front is disk.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:35] At least that. Could be worse.

Robbie Wagner: [41:37] Yeah. No, it's better. Like, before, it didn't stop at all, and they updated some of that, and it now is just really hard to stop.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:46] Right. They make you work for it. Do you want to live?

Robbie Wagner: [41:51] There's no chance of falling asleep driving in that thing, though.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:54] That's true.

Robbie Wagner: [41:54] Because you got to do a lot of work.

Chuck Carpenter:[41:56] Yeah. Okay. Massage seats are an option in some cars. I don't get that.

Robbie Wagner: [42:02] Have you tried one?

Chuck Carpenter:[42:03] No, because if I'm on a drive where I feel like I need a massage, I feel like that's just going to make things worse.

Robbie Wagner: [42:09] Okay. So yes for the driver's seat. Not a great idea for the passenger seat. Awesome. My dad's truck has it, and he had me test drive it because he bought it from somewhere up here. I don't really remember why, but I had to go drive it around and make sure it was a truck. So I did, and I turned the seats on, and that sealed it for me. I was like, I don't care anything else about this. This has massage seats and you should buy this.

Chuck Carpenter: [42:37] Yes, because I'm going to be the passenger.

Robbie Wagner: [42:39] Yeah. It is missing a really important thing, which I didn't think about on a test drive. It doesn't have front sensors. It has the rear backup sensors, but it doesn't have front ones.

Chuck Carpenter: [42:53] Right.

Robbie Wagner: [42:54] And it's like, why in this day and age would you not just have sensors everywhere so that I can park easily?

Chuck Carpenter: [43:00] I don't know. How do people do it ten years ago? Maybe they just stopped before they hit the wall.

Robbie Wagner: [43:06] You had to look where you're going. Yeah, it's crazy.

Chuck Carpenter: [43:11] Backup cameras are a game changer. I can remember, like, the first time I got a car with a backup camera previously, I remember saying, I don't know, whatever. I can just park. I don't need those things. I can park. I got driving skills. And then you get a backup camera and you're in, like, a big city trying to fit into a little space, and it's a game changer. And it's like spaces I would have skipped. I would have been like, no, I can't do that. Yes, I can. I've got this camera.

Robbie Wagner: [43:37] Yeah. Which I was hoping the auto park on the Tesla would do well at that, but it never comes up as an option. I pull up right next to the parallel parking spot and nothing happens. And then people are, like, waiting on me. I'm like, Sorry, I got to manually park now.

Chuck Carpenter: [43:52] Yeah. Elon's like, no, I'm out. I don't want that.

Robbie Wagner: [43:56] I do think they've dumbed some things down after lots of automated crashes where they're like, no, we want to be really sure that you can actually do the thing before we let you do the thing.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:06] Right. Seems pretty reasonable. Wait, we thought this was going to learn a lot faster. Apparently not. Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [44:12] It's a good time to take a break and say, this show is sponsored by Ship Shape motors.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:18] That's true. It has been all about one thing thus far. If only you were making that up.

Robbie Wagner: [44:24] Yeah. No, it can be. But we do have ship shape motors, but obviously, we have no products or money, so it is sponsored in spirit by us. To us.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:33] Yes. Seems cool. We bought these things for ourselves.

Robbie Wagner: [44:37] Yeah. Let's pivot to anything else.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:39] What did I say earlier, that you were like, Put that off until later?

Robbie Wagner: [44:42] I don't know.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:43] I said, put a pin in it. I figured that was your job to remember at that point.

Robbie Wagner: [44:49] We'll never know.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:50] Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [44:50] We don't have the technology to go back until the recording is done.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:54] All right, fair enough. I think I was telling you recently about how, thanks to my brother, my family acquired a recall box, which isn't what the name implies. Actually, I'm not sure what that's all about. So it's like basically simple OS for running, gaming emulators, and a bunch of ROMs and all that stuff.

Robbie Wagner: [45:15] It's not a memory test, as the name implies.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:17] No. Can you recall. Do you recall when you used to play these games? Yeah. So the Atari 2600 all the way up to I think we have like PS One or something. But our sweet spot is Super Nintendo. Yes, mostly that a little N 64.

Robbie Wagner: [45:34] A lot of good Super Nintendo games.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:36] They really are. The starter for all of it is my wife wanted to play Aladdin on Super Nintendo, which he realized that was a thing. I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [45:45] I never played that one. There's a lot of stuff you'd never heard of on all the Nintendo, for sure.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:51] Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of options. When Super Nintendo was out my age and I was like, teenager, so I wouldn't have been playing Aladdin. I was playing stuff like Super Star Wars and Chrono Trigger.

Robbie Wagner: [46:03] Got to play Mario. Right?

Chuck Carpenter: [46:05] Yeah, always play the Mario. Castlevanias. I kind of have a soft spot for the Castlevanias, so it's a pretty cool thing. The only annoying part has been, like, the controller configuration stuff every single time. So it's like, oh, initially we got some plug-in controllers, and then my son was like, yanking it out all the time. Then I got a Bluetooth one, kind of look like the old school ones, but then getting it configured so like a pain in the butt. And then you're like, oh, you have to go into a game and it's not working. You reboot the whole thing. Now we found our happy place and it's been good.

Robbie Wagner: [46:39] Nice.

Chuck Carpenter: [46:39] Have you ever heard of a game called Bubble Bubble?

Robbie Wagner: [46:42] No.

Chuck Carpenter: [46:42] Bubble Bubble. There's a little dino and he blows bubbles and then the bad guys come and get you. And it kind of looks like old-school Donkey Kong in a way. So instead of the barrels rolling, it's like these guys are coming at you and you bubble them and then you jump on them and then they turn into fruit or vegetables, and then get back to your points, go to the next level.

Robbie Wagner: [47:04] Interesting.

Chuck Carpenter: [47:05] It's kind of weird.

Robbie Wagner: [47:06] Yeah. Most of the games that I played were the original Nintendo. I never had the SNES, but I played the I forget the names. Like the Mario world ones, where you go around to the different levels and like, those were really fun on Super Nintendo, but on original, I used to play a set of the five games that would actually play because it always broke. So it was like Super Mario 3 was like a classic that was really good. Skate or Die. Do you ever play that?

Chuck Carpenter: [47:37] Yes. Totally played that because I was a skater back in the day.

Robbie Wagner: [47:42] Yeah, that was pretty fun. Ninja Turtles was pretty fun and StarTropics was the one game I think that I bought new, like wrapped up well, I don't remember where from, but I got it new, so it worked really well. Whereas the others were really old and died on me a lot. And all the Mario games obviously were really good.

Chuck Carpenter: [48:07] Yeah, you're like, I'm on Nintendo, I'm going to get their stuff. Zelda? Did you never play the first Zelda?

Robbie Wagner: [48:13] I actually, funny story, did not like the original couple Zeldas on NES, but I got back in N 64 with Ocarina of Time. Obviously amazing. So I played that and then since then was a Zelda fan and played all the old ones and liked them and stuff. But yeah, I don't know, I didn't like the format, I guess of like I don't know, I don't remember why I didn't like it. Because I played the same ones, were like released for Game Boy and stuff. And I played those then and liked them, but I didn't like them on Nest for whatever reason.

Chuck Carpenter: [48:45] Well, I mean, there was probably some time and maturity in between the time when you first played it and then when you got to experience it on a different platform.

Robbie Wagner: [48:54] Yeah, that's true. They even have them like remastered in 3D on Switch now. Like the Link's Awakening and stuff.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:02] Yeah, I heard that.

Robbie Wagner: [49:04] Yeah, I have that one. It's pretty good.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:06] Nice. Yeah, I haven't gone back to Switch in a while.

Robbie Wagner: [49:09] Got too many games on Recall Box now.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:11] Seriously. There's a lot of games there.

Robbie Wagner: [49:13] Can't go back.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:13] Although what game am I going to play while my family is on that?

Robbie Wagner: [49:18] Well, you play the switch while they're occupied.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:20] Yeah, that's how we went. Because I did pick up Tony Hawk Pro Skater.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:25] The original one?

Chuck Carpenter: [49:26] Yeah, one and two are on the Switch now, remastered for the Switch, so that's kind of fun. Although I don't know how to do any of those things anymore.

Robbie Wagner: [49:34] Did they update? I remember one, I think it was one, didn't have reverts, and two maybe did. I don't know if they changed that for the remaster.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:44] Yeah, I don't know. You have to look that up.

Robbie Wagner: [49:46] But that was the thing is you couldn't do big combos because when you landed off the pipe, you couldn't revert and continue your combo because that wasn't enabled. So it was like you can only maybe do like five tricks max for like a combo or something unless you're doing infinite grinds around something or whatever.

Chuck Carpenter: [50:03] Yeah, that was a big hack. Infinite grind. I don't know. That's a great question. I got it and then I've only played it for a brief amount of times.

Robbie Wagner: [50:13] Did you ever play Dave Mirra?

Chuck Carpenter: [50:15] I didn't. Was that the BMX one, right?

Robbie Wagner: [50:19] Yeah, I think I was one of the ten people that bought it.

Chuck Carpenter: [50:22] Yeah, poor Dave.

Robbie Wagner: [50:24] It was pretty good. It's just not as cool, I guess, like, being on a bike versus a skateboard.

Chuck Carpenter: [50:30] I mean, I respect that. I guess it just never got as popular. I don't know. Yeah, there's been a couple of really interesting Tony Hawk documentaries, too, over this year. So it was like a docuseries and then a different documentary. One of them was on HBO, so it was pretty good. Recommended. They did some, like, Powell-Peralta stuff.

Robbie Wagner: [50:49] I saw Tony Hawk was in, I think, DC. Sometime recently. He went to something and then just, like, went to a skate park and just showed up, like, what's up, I'm Tony Hawk, and just, like, hung out and did cool stuff.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:03] I'm Tony Hawk, and I'm in my 50s. I'll show you how it's done.

Robbie Wagner: [51:07] And I'm still way better than you could ever be at any age.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:11] Which is a shame. I think he's, like, technically, as far as competitions and stuff, even still better than his son. Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [51:18] That's embarrassing.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:19] Yeah. That's tough. Boy, you ain't got enough drive.

Robbie Wagner: [51:23] Yeah. Like, by the time his son can beat him, he's, like, 75 and using a walker to get onto the board.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:32] But then once he gets airborne.

Robbie Wagner: [51:37] Have you seen those videos of that guy that dresses up like an old guy and goes to Muscle Beach and works out?

Chuck Carpenter: [51:44] Yeah. Wasn't that Johnny Knoxville? Wasn't that a whole Jackass thing where he would pretend to be the old guy?

Robbie Wagner: [51:49] I don't remember where it was from, but it was just funny. He was like, hey, I'm old. Then he just squats, like, tons of weight, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [51:57] Yeah. Surprising everyone. I have seen those skits. Pretty funny.

Robbie Wagner: [52:02] Are there lots of things going on around you?

Chuck Carpenter: [52:04] There are. They're putting an octopus on my door right now.

Robbie Wagner: [52:08] Are they really?

Chuck Carpenter: [52:09] Yeah, real-time.

Robbie Wagner: [52:10] Did you order a sign or something?

Chuck Carpenter: [52:12] I didn't. They just offered it to everyone. They were like, do you want your logo on the door? And yeah, now I have it.

Robbie Wagner: [52:20] And they printed it and did it.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:23] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [52:23] Nice.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:24] And then a man just putting it on right now, live. But it won't be live when other people listen to this. It won't be live.

Robbie Wagner: [52:32] Yeah. Many weeks from now. Many weeks ago is when it was put on.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:36] Yeah. Happened just in time. So yeah. Anyway, games.

Robbie Wagner: [52:41] Yeah, I have been continuing pretty much only playing Destiny in terms of, like, electronic games. Played some poker recently with some friends at the lake and immediately got demolished within 20 minutes, bought back in, and also lost all that money within another 20 minutes because I always forget which hands win. So I'm like I get, like, all in. I get, like, two pair, and I'm like, okay, no one's beating me. Like, two pair is the best hand you can get. And then, like, three other people have flushes, and I'm like, okay, I'm sorry, I should not have bet.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:20] That's funny. Were you playing Texas Holdem? Seven Card Stud?

Robbie Wagner: [53:26] Yeah, Holdem.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:28] Got you. Know when to foldem.Know when to walk away.

Robbie Wagner: [53:33] So we play for really low amounts of money. Like, you buy in for $25 and you get $2,500 worth of chips. This is what I would spend on one hand of Blackjack at a casino.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:47] Right.

Robbie Wagner: [53:47] So I'm just like, yolo, with every hand because it doesn't matter, you know?

Chuck Carpenter: [53:52] Oh, boy. I used to kind of know how to play poker for a bit. Obviously, when I was in that world, I read a couple of books around specifically knowing statistics based on what your hand is, where you are in the turn, where you're seated from the dealer, all of those kinds of things.

Robbie Wagner: [54:14] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [54:14] And then based on those things, you would make different choices. Yes, but I don't remember all that stuff anymore.

Robbie Wagner: [54:20] I do it all wrong because I know like so there will be several times, like, everyone checks. Like no one raises all the way around. Several hands in a row. You should probably just, like, all in because clearly, no one has anything. But what if they're lying? Because that's the hard thing, is baiting people into that so that then you can take all their money.

Chuck Carpenter: [54:43] Right? Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [54:44] And now, those circumstances, you're supposed to be watching the people, and the people are watching you. And you would only check because you see, like, oh, Robbie has a big smile on his face. He probably has a pretty good hand, but I have a great hand.

Robbie Wagner: [54:57] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [54:57] So let's let him feel good. And then you check. Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [55:00] My brain is not powerful enough to do that.

Chuck Carpenter: [55:05] Hold your smiles back.

Robbie Wagner: [55:06] No, to strategize like that. I bet all over the place. I might have a good hand, I might not, but it's never very strategic. It's just like I feel like going all in.

Chuck Carpenter: [55:17] Yeah. And it's like, are people willing to pay to find out whether you're full of crap or not? And if they do, they find out you are.

Robbie Wagner: [55:23] Yeah. The fun thing is to take the first hand assuming you're not the blinds, and just immediately all in. Like, don't even see the cards. And then people are like Wait, what? And everyone will usually fold that first time because it's like, what the fuck? Why would you do that? But then it doesn't work in subsequent turns.

Chuck Carpenter: [55:43] Yeah, right. You can't, like, bully people out of every single hand. Yeah. I mean, I guess you could try.

Robbie Wagner: [55:49] But it doesn't work if someone inevitably has a flush or something and wins.

Chuck Carpenter: [55:54] Yeah. Like a pair of aces right off the bat or something. Like pretty good before you even see. I don't know. Sure. We'll play some poker sometime, sounds like, to me.

Robbie Wagner: [56:05] I love gambling.

Chuck Carpenter: [56:06] I don't have patience for it, though, I tell you. I would go and I have friends that can go spend 8,12 hours playing. I'm like, I just can't. I play a couple of hours and then I get bored and then I'm finally, like, all in. I just want to leave. I'm either going to leave with money or not.

Robbie Wagner: [56:22] Yeah, it's a little different, though. Like, I could play Blackjack for all day, especially the ones with the side bets because you can put like $5 there and it's like if your two cards and the dealer's card make a straight or a flush or a different stuff, you get a bunch of extra stuff. So you can bet like the minimum on the main bet and you make like 50 times your bet on the side bet. So you can just play all day on the side bet.

Chuck Carpenter: [56:49] Yeah, I don't know. I did not ever deal in a place that did that, and I would hate to keep track of it. Sounds horrible.

Robbie Wagner: [56:56] It is pretty tough. And several times I have to be like, hey, no, I actually made a bunch of money here. Like, give me that money, because the dealer cares about the blackjack. And I'm like, no, we're not here to play blackjack. We're here to play this side bet.

Chuck Carpenter: [57:10] Blackjack is just my buy-in to play this other thing. Thanks.

Robbie Wagner: [57:13] Yeah, no, it really is. All right, well, we're pretty overtime and we've talked about a bunch of random stuff here, so we'll go ahead and end it. Thanks, everyone, for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe and we'll catch you guys next time.

Chuck Carpenter: [57:28] Thanks for listening to Whiskey Web and Whatnot this podcast is brought to. You Ship Shape and produced by Podcast Royale. If you like this episode, consider sharing it with a friend or two and leave us a rating and maybe a review. As long as it's good.

Robbie Wagner: [57:43] You can subscribe to future episodes on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more info about Ship Shape and the show, check out our website at