49: HTML Accessibility, Package Managers, and the Whiskey Web and Whatnot NFT

Robbie Wagner: [00:09] What's going on, everybody? Welcome to another Whiskey Web and Whatnot with myself, Robbie Wagner, and my cohost, Charles William Carpenter III. What's going on, Chuck?

Robbie Wagner: [00:22] Are you intentionally doing a robot-like voice there? And my host today are.

Robbie Wagner: [00:28] Yeah, I don't know what I was doing.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:31] Robbie Wagner.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:34] Max.

Robbie Wagner: [00:34] Recalculating.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:36] Max Headroom. Robbie Wagner, Wagner. There you go. This is your career pivot.

Robbie Wagner: [00:45] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:46] like it.

Robbie Wagner: [00:46] We're actually recording sound bites that will be used for a future assistant from someone. Hopefully.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:53] Yeah, we're working on an assistant app. You could be offered as a voice in Siri in the future. Six options now.

Robbie Wagner: [01:00] Yeah, I know they have a bunch of different Waze voices, so we could just say, like, turn left, turn right.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:08] Yeah. Do you have to say every word, though? I wonder how they develop those voice assistant voices. I feel like they can take snippets and then create a lot of stuff.

Robbie Wagner: [01:16] I think it's all the words because the voice ones are always really dumbed down. They'll be like, instead of like, take exit 325 for this route, whatever, it's like, turn right. So I don't think they have the capability of AI doing it all.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:35] There we go. There's an opportunity for your machine learning now.

Robbie Wagner: [01:40] Yeah, because I am a machine learning expert, as we all know.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:43] You can write it with JavaScript now, so no excuses.

Robbie Wagner: [01:47] Well, true. We'll get Charlie back. That's what she was doing, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [01:51] Yeah, I bought her book. I haven't read it. Sorry, Charlie.

Robbie Wagner: [01:54] I'm sure she listens to this.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:59] Don't underestimate the power of your voice, your robot voice. No, but I did buy her book. I thought it was very intriguing to try and do that with a JavaScript thing. But like many books that I have, I have not had the time to dive in yet.

Robbie Wagner: [02:12] Yeah, I have lots of books and never have the time to finish any books.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:16] And by finish, you mean start them.

Robbie Wagner: [02:18] Probably not going to happen. No, I start many of them, and I read like I have a good hour or two where I'm like, okay, cool, reading is fun. And then life happens, and I never read again.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:28] Yeah. I have this standing at least, like, block in my head of the first 30 minutes I get into the office. I'm going to just read instead catching up an email or whatever else. But it has frequently been taken by, like, I sit down, and I have a question already or something, and then I engage there, or I'm just a little behind because I'm like, oh, I've pivoted into a feature and just not really clear how to get productive here. So yesterday was kind of a drag. I want to show a little progress before stand up meeting or something like that. So then you go back down that direction. So, yeah, basically, it just hasn't worked. But I really should, I should just be like, this is important to me. And at the beginning of the day is easier than the end of the day, so.

Robbie Wagner: [03:16] That's true.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:17] That's my suggestion. Thirty minutes per day per morning.

Robbie Wagner: [03:21] Yeah. I mean, they always say I forget the exact wording by whoever was important that tried to motivate people, but, like, saying that you should fit in. You can fit in anything that you prioritize. Right? If you said working out is the same as eating, it has to be done. You would find time.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:41] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [03:41] But because we don't, we're like, oh, let me get out that little bit more code, because I know I have this bug I need to fix or whatever, we do that instead, and that's never-ending.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:51] It is, yeah. And making clients happy and showing some sort of progress or at least, like, showing effort, I think, goes a long way, so it's hard to balance. Yeah. Problem is, this is like getting a specific amount of heads down time without being I get interrupted too frequently, and then I have a hard time getting back into context and remind myself, and then, oh, yeah, oh, I screwed this up, and the build takes six minutes every time anyway.

Robbie Wagner: [04:24] Yeah. I think we're also our worst critics because most of the time, I'm the one being like, oh, I need to get all this done in this amount of time. And the clients are like. We don't care. Just get it done as soon as you can. But I don't want to appear like I'm not doing enough, so I, like, force myself to do anyway, I know you're getting ready to say, let's do the whiskey, so let's do the whiskey.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:46] That's what I was going to say. Let's do the whiskey. Yeah. We keep talking about the things that make me want the whiskey.

Robbie Wagner: [04:51] That's the first thing we just spent almost five minutes on, not whiskey. What are we doing?

Chuck Carpenter: [04:55] I don't know. Seemed very processy and worky. Work, Whiskey Web, and Whatnot. The four Ws. W4. We're bringing it.

Robbie Wagner: [05:06] Quad dubs. All right, so this is.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:10] Web3 is over.

Robbie Wagner: [05:11] Huling, I guess because two L's would be hulling.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:14] Oh, yeah. Hauling like Hauling Station.

Robbie Wagner: [05:18] I guess. Huling Station. Very small batch, 100 proof.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:23] It does say established 1866, so I don't know if it was an old brand, maybe they brought back or something of that nature.

Robbie Wagner: [05:30] Well, the back says well, aside from.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:33] Dominick's family recipe.

Robbie Wagner: [05:34] Yeah. So it's like this guy had a recipe for spirits that arrived by rail to their station warehouse. I think it's, like, inspired by that. And some of those were sent there at that time. I don't think the people that make this have been making it since 1866.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:53] Yes, but this says was specifically commissioned and made in strict accordance with Old Dominick's family recipe, so yeah, probably not in continuity. Right.

Robbie Wagner: [06:06] Well, I think what it is, is this warehouse was established in 1866, and they didn't necessarily make whiskey all the time, but it was like, no, they're making it sound like they have an old whiskey brand.

Chuck Carpenter: [06:18] Yeah. And people can buy an old label and get the old mash bill and then say that's happened a bunch. And fun fact, it's distilled in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, and any listeners of the show, any previous listeners would have probably heard us mentioned before that, oh, that's MGP. So they sourced it. They said, hey, make this thing for us like this. And it doesn't say how long it was aged. Does it? Not seeing it. Just says very small batch.

Robbie Wagner: [06:50] No.

Chuck Carpenter: [06:50] No, there's no age statement there, so it's got to be at least four years. But their mash bill.

Robbie Wagner: [06:55] How small is very small? Do we have the only bottles?

Chuck Carpenter: [06:57] I'm going to guess, no. But they are based all the way from Memphis, Tennessee. Just like your favorite pop star, Justin Timberlake.

Robbie Wagner: [07:06] I wouldn't say he's my favorite, but anyway.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:10] Elvis Presley.

Robbie Wagner: [07:12] Honestly, I don't know. I have a hard time picking favorite things, but let me try this whiskey here. I smell recently cleaned leather shoes.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:25] I felt like a little raisin.

Robbie Wagner: [07:29] Some little bit of lacquer or varnish.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:35] That's not appealing to anyone.

Robbie Wagner: [07:37] Yes, all of this stuff is like cleaner varnish. Like chemically. The smell is not a great smell.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:44] No.

Robbie Wagner: [07:44] To be honest.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:45] I felt a mustiness and a little raisin.

Robbie Wagner: [07:47] Well, raisin is at least the first good thing that I've heard.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:51] Yeah. Mildew, though, is like yeah, musty, mildewy kind of. Right?

Robbie Wagner: [07:55] Like when you make a thing of protein, and you leave the cup, and you don't clean it for a couple of days. A little bit of that.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:01] Yeah. Okay. Protein time.

Robbie Wagner: [08:08] My lungs. All right.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:11] Not as bad on the taste, but it's a little weird, right?

Robbie Wagner: [08:15] It's definitely unique. I give it that.

Chuck Carpenter:[08:17] Yeah. Maybe like a light licorice.

Robbie Wagner: [08:20] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:21] And corn and licorice. It does feel young, so they don't tell you the age because they're probably pushing it out the door pretty quickly. We had this one for a little while.

Robbie Wagner: [08:31] This feels like they didn't even put it in barrels. They just used some wood chips, and I don't know, it's like if you made a candle that was supposed to be bourbon scented or something.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:44] Oh, yeah, I can get that. And then you chewed on that candle a little bit. Instead, you smelled it, and you're like.

Robbie Wagner: [08:52] Yeah, I'm not enjoying it.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:55] Yeah. He was like, I smell it, and it kind of smells like liquor. So I wonder if it tastes like liquor. The thing that kid would do with a candle. And then you decide to do it, and then you're like, doesn't taste like.

Robbie Wagner: [09:09] Bad choice.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:11] Yeah. I would say this isn't great.

Robbie Wagner: [09:14] Yeah. I'm going to go ahead and give this one a two. Honestly.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:18] Yeah, I'm going to say two. It was better than the pancake whiskey for me because that was like bad whiskey with maple syrup flavor.

Robbie Wagner: [09:26] That's like the bottom. That's what everything else gets rated against. Yeah, this is would not have again, really like their packaging and their story. Like, oh, that's cool. But it seems like they spend a lot of time on the branding, thinking that people like me that buy stuff because it looks cool will buy it. And they are correct.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:45] And you did.

Robbie Wagner: [09:46] I did.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:47] And then they will only sell you one bottle. I feel like we got it in a decent place, like Seelbach's or something, too. So you.

Robbie Wagner: [09:55] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:55] Tend to feel like, oh, they're going to pick some decent brands, and so nothing's going to be bad. It may not be your favorite, but this seems kind of bad, actually. Yeah, I know. We bought it a little bit ago.

Robbie Wagner: [10:04] It's pretty bad.

Chuck Carpenter: [10:05] Well, I'm going to let it open up a little bit. I'm going to stop sipping it, which is very unlike me for now, besides the fact that I've only eaten two baked potatoes today. But that could be a whatnot discussion, I suppose.

Robbie Wagner: [10:16] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [10:18] This is an easy like, this is two, and the only way I won't waste it is probably in a couple of cocktails where it will be heavily masked.

Robbie Wagner: [10:24] Oh, yeah, for sure.

Chuck Carpenter: [10:25] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [10:26] I don't know if did we say the mash bill?

Chuck Carpenter: [10:27] We might not have 52% corn, 44% rye, 4% malted barley, and then it's 100 proof, so it's kind of decent proof to it, too. You think, like, maybe that higher alcohol is going to kind of mask over some of the stuff. I'm definitely getting the corn aspect, but they're low in corn. Really? For bourbon, you only have to be 51%. They're just barely pushing them. And a lot of rye, which you would think would make you happy.

Robbie Wagner: [10:57] You would think.

Chuck Carpenter: [10:57] But I don't know. Something going on there. Something's not right. Maybe the grains they're sourcing aren't great. Maybe it's too young. Not sure. Huling Station, Huling Station, or whatever it is. If you're listening, which I imagine.

Robbie Wagner: [11:11] I'm sure you are.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:12] Yeah, I don't know. Send us another one. Maybe you can do better than this. Maybe this is, you know, early.

Robbie Wagner: [11:19] Yeah, I have no idea. But this is what they liked.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:22] This is what they picked.

Robbie Wagner: [11:23] Yeah. I'm going to continue drinking it just because I already poured it, but I don't love it.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:28] No, same. I'm going to let mine sit just because it's probably going to take about an ounce to give me a buzz because potatoes. Potatoes.

Robbie Wagner: [11:37] I've had a substantial lunch of combos, gummy bears, and cookies.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:44] Are those the snacks that you have available in the coworking space?

Robbie Wagner: [11:48] We have lots of stuff. I always get the gummy bears because I am an adult.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:55] Feels like that's a contradiction in terms. Yeah. Well, our marketing person, our director of marketing, has been trying to work on upgraded snacks to the salamander, but they have a very slow contact cycle.

Robbie Wagner: [12:08] Yeah, sounds like it's basically, we can pull the trigger whenever, but we're kind of waiting on renovations to be 100% done and stuff. So we're not in a hurry.

Chuck Carpenter: [12:17] Get that upgraded and get some upgraded photos. And people still can't pay us because we're maxed out anyway.

Robbie Wagner: [12:24] Yeah, anyway.

Chuck Carpenter: [12:26] Potato, potahto.

Robbie Wagner: [12:27] Yeah. Let's talk about some tech, I guess.

Chuck Carpenter: [12:30] Sure.

Robbie Wagner: [12:30] I saw a tweet. I forget the exact content of the tweet or who said it, so it was one of the accessibility people that we follow from the list of people that might be on the show at some point or whatever. And he was saying that there's, I think, 100 HTML elements. And I think the gist of it was like, he said his dog knew 50 English words, and there's 100 elements, but if you knew 50 of them, you would be doing really well on an accessibility standpoint. So his point was, if his dog can know 50 human words, you can know 50 different elements or whatever.

Chuck Carpenter: [13:11] For sure. Yeah. But I think the problem is that they're not well in play. And I think in previous conversations, we've touched on this. So this is good because I was an early proponent of like semantic document structure and all of that kind of stuff, but that was like 15-plus years ago.

Chuck Carpenter: [13:27] Yeah

Chuck Carpenter: [13:28] I'll be coming on 20 years ago when all of that was like, so I wonder if there's new ones, or just I've forgotten.

Robbie Wagner: [13:34] Well, yeah, I don't know if new ones have come out since HTML5. Do they rolling basis, add new ones or I guess they're not releasing new like there's not going to be an HTML6. It's just like it's kind of like ES 2013 and 14 and 15 and whatever. Yeah, like there's a new couple of things every year, maybe.

Chuck Carpenter: [13:55] Okay, that makes sense. I guess it would just be like a little bit of bolt on if there was a thing. But at this point, what do we need? Right? What are we missing? I mean, I remember the picture element was the big to do back in the day, and we couldn't wait for that. I even wrote a polyfill for the picture element just to get ahead of that a little bit because I work for National Geographic, and pictures were kind of a big deal there.

Robbie Wagner: [14:22] Yeah, I could see that being a big deal.

Chuck Carpenter: [14:24] Yeah. But who knows? Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [14:28] So I thought it would be fun to see if we can name more than ten even. Because obviously, you got divs.

Chuck Carpenter:[14:38] I was going to say well, hold on, before we count, first of all, is this us together? How many we can name, or are we doing some individual scoring? I think we should do it together.

Robbie Wagner: [14:48] I was thinking together. Yeah, we could just stop talking for five minutes and write down as many as we can think of. But that's not that fun.

Chuck Carpenter: [14:55] That doesn't sound fun. Yeah. Okay, so we have div. So we have one.

Robbie Wagner: [15:01] We can just go back and forth until we run out.

Chuck Carpenter: [15:03] I'm going to start at the top of the document. The HTML element.

Robbie Wagner: [15:08] Yes. Yeah, I think there's even like I looked up the list earlier, and I didn't really look at any. I just wanted to see how many there were. And then I think the first one which I read because I pulled the page up was like the doctype or something. Like you can put it like the comment that's like doctype, HTML, whatever thing. So there's three.

Chuck Carpenter: [15:29] Okay. Head. No stuff is in the head, right?

Robbie Wagner: [15:34] Yup, body.

Chuck Carpenter: [15:34] I'm just literally going from the top. There you go. Five. Well, I'm going to get into the head still. And there's a link tag in the head. Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [15:44] There's a bunch of different meta tags in the head.

Chuck Carpenter: [15:47] Yeah. So meta.

Robbie Wagner: [15:48] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [15:48] Style can be in the head.

Robbie Wagner: [15:51] Script could be in the head or elsewhere.

Chuck Carpenter: [15:54] We got nine here. We're getting somewhere. Let's see here. Do I have to get out of the? I feel like there's probably something in the head that I'm missing, but I'm going to go ahead and jump into easy ones. P for paragraph.

Robbie Wagner: [16:11] Yeah. Going back to head, I forget, is it a meta one that talks about like your screen size is like this or whatever, and then in, i.e., it should do certain things. Are those meta tags? I forget what that is.

Chuck Carpenter:[16:26] That sounds like it would be.

Robbie Wagner: [16:28] Okay

Chuck Carpenter: [16:28] And if you want me to cheat, I could do that.

Robbie Wagner: [16:31] Well, that's the only other thing I could think of in the head.

Chuck Carpenter: [16:35] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [16:35] So then yeah, so we're at ten now, so let's just add six more h one to h six.

Chuck Carpenter: [16:41] Great. So let's get into more interesting ones. There's the section tags.

Robbie Wagner: [16:48] An article, someone related.

Chuck Carpenter: [16:50] There you go.

Robbie Wagner: [16:51] 18.

Chuck Carpenter:[16:52] A for anchor. 19.

Robbie Wagner: [16:55] My brain stopped working video.

Chuck Carpenter: [16:57] Okay. 20. IMG image.

Robbie Wagner: [17:01] Does SVG count? I guess?

Chuck Carpenter: [17:03] I think so. It's a tag.

Robbie Wagner: [17:04] And do all of the things inside of SVG count or is that XML and not HTML like a g and all the different stuff in there? I think those are probably XML and not HTML.

Chuck Carpenter: [17:17] Right?

Robbie Wagner: [17:17] So we'll say SVG. How many was that?

Chuck Carpenter: [17:20] That was 21, right? That's 21.

Robbie Wagner: [17:23] Yes, 21.

Chuck Carpenter: [17:24] Okay. I'm going to say ul and li.

Robbie Wagner: [17:28] Yeah. Okay. So that's 23, I guess ol.

Chuck Carpenter: [17:32] Ordered list.

Robbie Wagner: [17:33] Ordered list.

Chuck Carpenter: [17:34] So unordered and ordered. Yeah. So that's 24. Getting somewhere. Button 25.

Robbie Wagner: [17:43] Said picture earlier, but I don't think we've listed it yet. So 26.

Chuck Carpenter: [17:47] Yeah. Then it has like nested things, right, or something. Where did the spec go? I don't even really know. Did it go as an attribute, or did it go as like child elements in there?

Robbie Wagner: [17:59] I haven't used a vanilla picture element. What I have used is like Nuxt image or whatever. And those I think behind the scenes use picture and do, like I think it's source set or something?

Chuck Carpenter: [18:12] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [18:12] That shoves the source in.

Chuck Carpenter:[18:14] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [18:14] So I think it's all props or attributes. It's another thing. What's the difference between attributes and props? It's all kind of the same.

Chuck Carpenter: [18:22] Props is JSX thing, right? Props comes in, or props is a React thing. So it's like properties of that JSX element will pass down. So it would look like attributes, but attributes are actual, like on the.

Robbie Wagner: [18:35] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [18:36] Yeah, so.

Robbie Wagner: [18:36] That's what I thought, but I don't know. We can get into that on another episode. There's some, like, testing utils that make that ambiguous, but anyway, how many was that? 25. 26.

Chuck Carpenter: [18:48] 26. I think we just got into 26. Okay, now I might start getting, so I believe then there's audio and audio elements. 27.

Robbie Wagner: [19:02] Span.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:03] Oh, yeah, there we go. Rollback. So that's 28. Okay. So then we have let's see here. There's a definition list. DL. And then it has.

Robbie Wagner: [19:23] DD.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:23] Different stuff in there. Yes, there you go. Definition definition thing or whatever. So that's 30. 30.

Robbie Wagner: [19:29] Yeah. Then we've got table and all the things associated.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:34] Okay. So hold on here. So table, we have table row, and.

Robbie Wagner: [19:40] td, trtd.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:40] Yup.

Robbie Wagner: [19:40] thead.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:48] Yup. Then there's like column.

Robbie Wagner: [19:50] I don't know that there is a column. It's just rows and tds, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [19:54] Yeah. But up in the head or up in right under, you can do like a col.

Robbie Wagner: [19:58] Oh, yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:59] So you have table head, and then there.

Robbie Wagner: [20:02] Which I think is like a th. It's like a special, like, thead, then th or something.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:07] Right? And then you have, like, column things too. But we have to be able to name it.

Robbie Wagner: [20:14] I think that's basically it.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:17] We're at 34.

Robbie Wagner: [20:19] That's 35.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:20] 35, okay. That's 35.

Robbie Wagner: [20:22] I know. There was an old one. I think it was like blink, and it would just make stuff blink.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:27] Why not?

Robbie Wagner: [20:27] Do you remember that?

Chuck Carpenter: [20:28] Yeah, blink text. Yeah, totally. Well, there's like a bold also.

Robbie Wagner: [20:34] Yes. That's two more. So that's 37.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:38] There's an itag, right?

Robbie Wagner: [20:41] For an icon. Yes, 38.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:44] I thought it was for italic or something. So it's like bold where it was like a styling one, and then they're like, don't do that styling thing. The semantic is different, I think maybe.

Robbie Wagner: [20:57] There's a more one for a tag.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:59] Like an emphasis tag or something.

Robbie Wagner: [21:01] Yeah, because I as an icon, like, you can say I class your fun awesome icon or whatever, and that'll be your icon. Unless it's for Italics, but you just aren't putting anything in it, so you never notice. And it just happens to be used for that.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:16] Yeah. I feel like it was like an italics or something.

Robbie Wagner: [21:19] I don't know.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:19] Yeah, there was like another style one, and then the semantic was like an emphasis or something.

Robbie Wagner: [21:26] Okay, we'll say that's two. Yeah, I think there's two different ones there.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:30] Okay, so wait, what does that put us? 39. Two more to the 37, I think.

Robbie Wagner: [21:35] 39.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:35] 39. Okay. Yeah. Now we're stretching it.

Robbie Wagner:[21:38] Isn't there a block quote or something like that?

Chuck Carpenter: [21:40] Yeah, there is. Yes. Block quote. Oh, and which reminds me, picture had one that was like, okay, so that's 40 at block quote, and then picture had one that was the caption, no caption tag.

Robbie Wagner: [21:57] Yes.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:58] 41.

Robbie Wagner: [21:59] Yeah. I think there's things similar to that. I think there's like an abbreviation one or something.

Chuck Carpenter: [22:09] Abbr.

Robbie Wagner: [22:10] Maybe like a subscript or something like that.

Chuck Carpenter: [22:13] We can't count it unless we can say.

Robbie Wagner: [22:15] I don't know. I think the Abbr is one because.

Chuck Carpenter: [22:18] I feel like audio also audio has a child one, too, called controls, right? Where you're able to if you don't want the faults, you can do some things there. I think. I messed with some audio stuff.

Robbie Wagner: [22:32] I don't know that I've used audio.

Chuck Carpenter: [22:34] I did. I actually did like a custom React player. Well, we did it first time using jQuery and some semantic HTML. Then we wrote it and React, and then I played with it in some other frameworks down the line and then kind of whatever. But it was like a cool audio player where it was like a circle. Right? And then the progress would go around the circle.

Robbie Wagner: [22:58] Fancy.

Chuck Carpenter: [22:59] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [23:01] So we're at 42. Can we think of eight more?

Chuck Carpenter: [23:05] 42? Eight more without cheating.

Robbie Wagner: [23:09] Oh, is it a side? What's the side?

Chuck Carpenter: [23:13] Oh, right, yeah. Okay. Yes. There's an aside one. That's 43. And then there's a nav tag, too. That's 44.

Robbie Wagner: [23:23] And there's main, which I always wrap my main content in. So 45, there's something for footer, right? Is it footer?

Chuck Carpenter: [23:32] Footer, yeah, 46.

Robbie Wagner: [23:33] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [23:34] Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [23:38] Four more.

Chuck Carpenter: [23:42] Gosh. Really stretching it now. Is there a media tag? I felt like there maybe it was a media, maybe not.

Robbie Wagner: [23:48] Maybe.

Chuck Carpenter: [23:49] What would it be, though? Don't know?

Robbie Wagner: [23:51] I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [23:52] Then not count it.

Robbie Wagner: [23:55] Oh, HR, like the person, what is that? 46? No, I think we needed four more. So we're already 46, so we need three more.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:08] Okay. So we're at 47. Let's say it out loud, so I remember. Okay. Yeah, I know. I'm trying to dig into the old-school ones to see if I can.

Robbie Wagner: [24:19] Weren't there two tags for bold? I know strong was one isn't like.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:23] Strong.

Robbie Wagner: [24:24] So we could say strong. That's another one.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:27] Yeah, that was, I think, what we were supposed to use semantically over B.

Robbie Wagner: [24:32] But they both exist.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:33] Yes.

Robbie Wagner: [24:34] I need two more.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:35] Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [24:40] I got nothing, though, I can't think of. You might have to come back to it.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:46] Canvas.

Robbie Wagner: [24:50] Okay, we need one more.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:51] I think I might be tapped out.

Robbie Wagner: [24:54] Let's let the back of our minds think about it instead of sitting here with dead audio.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:59] Yeah. Okay. We'll come back around.

Robbie Wagner: [25:02] So we need one more. One more to be real developers.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:05] Yes. Doing everything in HTML from now on out so that I don't ever forget this embarrassing fail again. No, I don't know. I think we did pretty decent. I don't know. How many more were you going to be using?

Robbie Wagner: [25:20] I think most people don't know anything about, oh, there we go. Select and option and stuff.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:26] 51. Yeah. We are the ultimate agency.

Robbie Wagner: [25:30] Cool.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:31] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [25:31] Hire us.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:32] Hire us for your HTML needs.

Robbie Wagner: [25:35] Did you even know there was HTML? Most of you have probably used just React and divs.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:39] But there is HTML. Yeah. Pseudo-elements, essentially.

Robbie Wagner: [25:43] Yeah. Cool.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:45] Well, there we go. We got somewhere with that. I'm impressed.

Robbie Wagner: [25:47] Yeah, I feel accomplished.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:49] Let's talk about things.

Robbie Wagner: [25:50] This whiskey is still bad.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:52] Yeah, turns out okay. I was going to say I've given it some time while we went to that game, and it's sweeter in the smell.

Robbie Wagner: [25:59] Yeah, actually, the smell is not that bad, but the taste is still harsh. It's not my favorite. It's like harsh in a bad way. Rye is usually harsh in a good way.

Chuck Carpenter: [26:09] Yeah, right. I was just trying to look at the cork to see like, did we get a bad cork or something? But no, it looks like it's a rubber cork. It's not like they give you a real cork anyway. Can't blame that. It's not the cork's fault. Yeah. So let's talk about package managers.

Robbie Wagner: [26:29] Yeah. A little bit more of a real topic instead of just naming elements for ten minutes.

Chuck Carpenter: [26:36] Maybe, but I think HTML is real, and it hasn't been the first-class citizen that it deserves in terms of the Internet itself, whose intention was to distribute documents and have that accessible across schools and scientific organizations and whatever else. So let's not forget what it was all about, especially if you have a content site. Give your content first-class citizenship.

Robbie Wagner: [27:04] Yeah, I don't disagree. I just mean we didn't really talk about that much about what the elements are or give it a highlight. We were just sitting there naming things, so it may be kind of boring, but.

Chuck Carpenter: [27:16] We'll see.

Robbie Wagner: [27:16] Hopefully, people played along and named more than us.

Chuck Carpenter: [27:20] Yeah, there we go. Let us know if you name more than us or if there are like any glaring omissions from our part. I mean, we included blink.

Robbie Wagner: [27:29] So we must have missed something obvious.

Chuck Carpenter: [27:32] Package managers. NPM is the leader in the JavaScript world, although has its proponents and opponents. Many people have jumped over to Yarn for some of its benefits over a period of time, and some of its features influenced NPM and sort of like bring people back and forth a little bit. I feel like I've been using Yarn more than anything for a pretty long period of time. And then, unfortunately, just like Yarn 1, because taking either just what you know or taking an existing project over to Yarn 2 or trying to look at other things can be fairly challenging. But there are some other players in the mix.

Robbie Wagner: [28:17] Yeah, I think it really depends on what you're wanting because NPM will get most things done. Yarn, I think functionally has some improvements if you ignore the caching and the supposed speed benefits and whatever because I think NPM has a lot of that these days too. The things that have worked really well are like the resolutions in Yarn. So you have like a sub dependency of a sub dependency that needs to be updated, and they're never going to update that because it's four years out of date, and it's unmaintained. So you just want to up some security vulnerability or something that has some features you need or whatever. Yarn has really nice things you can say, like star, star slash a thing, and update that package in every sub dependency, so everything will use that one and stuff like that. Whereas NPM has kind of overrides now, which is supposed to be the same thing, but when I've used it, it hasn't worked the same. And then also, when you use GitHub links, Yarn tends to work better. Like it's not a published thing. You just have a link to the thing and maybe a hash or whatever. Yarn will store that better and install it better than NPM. So all speed things aside, that's what draws me to Yarn or drew me to Yarn, however many years ago now. When did it come out?

Chuck Carpenter: [29:40] Feels like a long time ago.

Robbie Wagner: [29:42] Yeah, I want to say at least, at least five years, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [29:45] Easily. Yeah. If not much longer. Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [29:49] So those are the things that brought me there because, as web developers, we tend to have really overpowered machines for no reason. And usually except for recently when I moved to the middle of nowhere, we have good internet connections. So if it takes a little while, okay, I'll hit install and wait a minute, and it'll be done. That doesn't really severely impact my day.

Chuck Carpenter: [30:13] True. Yeah. I think when it gets more into play is when you're talking about continuous integration and waiting for all of that. And you can have a lot of these systems cache, those dependencies after the first run, and then you can utilize that throughout the same pipeline. But the pipeline is always going to start at least the first job with getting that and going fast. And you want some fast feedback on your stuff, especially if you've broken something in your CI or you get some feedback, and you need to make some changes, and then maybe you get another cycle of feedback and then all of a sudden a decent chunk of your day can be taken up. If you happen to have a bunch of stuff happening in that install step, these things can kind of start to matter and accumulate in that sense.

Robbie Wagner: [31:08] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [31:08] I think it's less local.

Robbie Wagner: [31:09] I hadn't considered CI. I think that does make a big difference because in CI, we do all kinds of magic tricks to try to make it faster and split into a bunch of different boxes and run a few tests in each and then merge it all back together or whatever we can to make it faster. And that is a big long step, especially in Ember addons. You have to test a whole bunch of Ember versions with Ember try, and all of those have to install all the dependencies. So you might have 20 minutes before you realize if it's all passed, which is pretty slow.

Chuck Carpenter: [31:45] Yeah. And then, if you do that handful of times per day, waste a couple of hours waiting for that feedback.

Robbie Wagner: [31:52] So Pnpm is the new player in the space. I don't know how actually new it is. I've been hearing about it for a while, but I think it's gotten hot recently. And I don't know if it helps with CI, but kind of the I haven't used it personally. From what I've heard and read about it, it's kind of like its benefits are. It has one global store for everything. So it installs everything to, let's say, basically a global node modules and then pulls those into all of your projects with hard links. So it's like linked to the one in the global. So the idea is if anything has ever installed, like, let's say, I don't know, jQuery three, you're going to just pull it down from the global. You're never going to install it again in another package. So that kind of takes the complete opposite approach from Yarn and especially the newer Yarns, where they make you use yarn specific to that project. Like you can have Yarn 2 in one, Yarn 3 in one, whatever. All of that is very like, let's cache it all for this one project and make that really optimized versus maybe you're going to work on ten repos that day and install similar things.

Robbie Wagner: [33:09] Pnpm really speeds that up, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [33:12] Yeah. So in that sense, I think it makes the local experience better. I'm not sure how much that's effective in a CI, and then I wonder how effective that is in terms of production. Right. Like, I guess it depends on where you're going to. You're going to an amplifier Vercel.

Robbie Wagner:[33:29] Yeah. So these things that spin up a box, like a serverless thing to run your stuff one time, would they have the capability to, I guess you could probably configure it to say, I want to store all my Pnpm cache forever in some directory or whatever. But I would imagine a lot of CI doesn't get that benefit because it's just torn down and restarted. So it's probably the same amount of caching as Yarn or NPM because all you can do is say, fine, cask this stuff and do whatever CI does. I wouldn't think it would be any faster for CI.

Chuck Carpenter:[34:04] Right. Yeah. So in that sense, I think it's just better for local DX, which I guess is a decent proponent. You said if you. Maybe if you're not in a monorepo situation, I don't know how it manages monorepos a little bit differently. I saw something about like. It doesn't, by default, hoist in the same way because it has that global install. The global store doesn't really need a hoist because, hey, I've got a global store across your project. So any, whatever, 3.1 is a 3.1 everywhere, all in one place. And so it's supposed to do some really smart SIM linking kind of stuff too, for you, I think. So maybe there's a benefit there.

Robbie Wagner: [34:48] Yeah. The other thing that I read was instead of if you NPM install, it's going to go down your package JSON and install each thing, and if one fails, it's going to stop. Pnpm supposedly splits all those out so that if you have one package that's doing like a pre-install thing and a post-install thing, and they're all doing a bunch of stuff like running that node node-gyp or like all these things like compile stuff behind the scenes. Right.

Chuck Carpenter: [35:14] Oh, yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [35:14] It's going to split all those, like parallelize how do you say that word? Parallelize.

Chuck Carpenter: [35:19] Parallelize or parallelism?

Robbie Wagner: [35:22] Yeah, it's going to do it in parallel in a bunch of different I don't know how many it will do, but if it splits that up, it's the same idea of splitting your tests into different boxes too. Like it runs everything separately.

Chuck Carpenter: [35:35] So it's multi-threading processes somehow, which is kind of nice. Yeah. So it's not synchronous in that way where like, you get through all of this, and then if that shits the bed, well, all your other stuff, and then you have to start over and figure out each one as it goes through the process. Yeah, I get that. So it could be part of it for you.

Robbie Wagner: [35:53] Yeah, because you don't need a perfect local node modules. It can just treat them all as separate packages and install them in the global thing. So if one fails, that one would fail, but the rest would keep trying, and then you would have to try that one again, I guess, later.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:10] Right, because the other ones would get cache still. Yeah. So like, your whole process doesn't fail, and then you come back, and you're like, oh, what made this fail? Great, I fixed that. Now it doesn't have to start at the beginning, clearing out everything and then redo your full install, so that's also a little faster again, like better DX, which might still be a good pull to try it out.

Robbie Wagner: [36:33] Yeah. And I don't know anything about how it compares on little things like when you NPM install versus Yarn install. These are your security vulnerabilities. These are the packages they want to be sponsored, more information than you get when you Yarn install. I don't know if Pnpm wraps kind of the base NPM install and would still give you that info or not, but that's another thing that you kind of lack in these things that aren't the official NPM. You kind of don't get all the same info because they're rewriting some of these things.

Chuck Carpenter: [37:07] Yeah, right. I think that's a call too. You should try the thing before you talk about it.

Robbie Wagner: [37:15] I've been wanting to try Pnpm, and so some of the clients I'm working with, one of them uses NPM. And every time I do it like, I try to do something and it doesn't work right. I'm like, let's use Yarn. And so once you get the buy-in from enough people to use yarn, I'm like, well, if we're going to make this big pivotal switch, why don't we try something like Pnpm? Like people like NPM better anyway at this particular client. So why shove Yarn down their throat? So we can do the new cooler hotness, and maybe it's just as good. I don't know. So I've been trying to do it there, and I had another client. We use Yarn, and there's some discrepancies, like some projects use Yarn 1, and some use Yarn 2 or 3. And when you switch, and you try to yarn install, it depends how you've installed your Yarn. So if you use Brew to install a global Yarn and you run Yarn, it will always be like Yarn 1.22. Even if there's a Yarn 2 in that local folder, right, the SIM link overwrites it or whatever. So that's a big problem. I don't know where I was going with that when I started, but that is a big problem.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:24] That's a big problem. So try this other one that maybe is less of a big problem. It's hard to say, right?

Robbie Wagner: [38:28] So I'm like, we have these problems. Why don't we try Pnpm? And I think there's buy-in there. We're probably going to convert every project to it pretty soon.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:36] Yeah, I want to try it on one of our open-source ones. So probably try it on React Shepherd and see how that goes. Yeah, it's nice to be able to apply it to something where like, oh, it's not going to break the main project. It's not really related.

Robbie Wagner: [38:49] Yeah, we could try it on Shepherd itself. I don't care.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:52] Cool. That's true. Because that's not a monorepo like the React one is.

Robbie Wagner: [38:56] Well, Pnpm works with monorepos. I don't know how, but it does.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:00] Right, but I'm saying, like, first try it without and then try it on, and then base case POC is kind of like how Bun was. POC some Bun. Bun doesn't support some things. Yeah. Not ready.

Robbie Wagner: [39:16] We need to have the Bun guy on here and talk to him about how it doesn't support the exact cases that we wanted to support. And we need to fix that.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:23] And for the $50 whiskey, you will appreciate us more.

Robbie Wagner:[39:28] That might be all it takes. I mean, if it's not a hard implementation, then I think it was just one thing that didn't work, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [39:34] Yeah, it was. Next dynamic.

Robbie Wagner: [39:37] I think so for dynamic loading the dynamic imports.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:41] Yeah. So it was like some things with that. And Mark created an issue.

Robbie Wagner: [39:48] It has like dynamic require or like something similar, but it didn't quite support the exact way we wanted to do it. I think.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:56] Yeah, let's try that. So stay tuned for that. He's on the hook now.

Robbie Wagner: [40:01] Yeah, I did talk to the guy from Supabase, which is like a Firebase alternative.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:08] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [40:09] And he's probably going to be on at some point. Well, I shouldn't say that because everyone I announced just bails on us.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:18] Well, I guess we'll see. TBD. Yeah. Because you can actually start up Redwood projects with Supabase, but there's like a slight tweak because I think Redwood is just Postgres with Prisma, and Supabase has like a small tweak there, and we just started playing with that in a repo. So I don't know if it affects it after you do the initial in it, but something to consider since we don't have a Postgres connection yet.

Robbie Wagner: [40:46] Yes. Unless someone else wants to really do a lot of SQL stuff, I think we should try it because then it's easy. I'm sure it's trying to be a Firebase competitor. I'm sure it has easy, like clicking edit stuff for anyone to do.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:02] Yeah, I mean, Prisma does make query creation pretty easy. I mean, there's a ton of sugar over top of that. You're like, define your Prisma models, and then it has all of those very like Ember data, like, oh, here's the model. Get or get all or that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [41:23] So maybe it doesn't matter for our specific case, but still, it'll be cool to try.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:27] So tell me what exotic location you recently visited.

Robbie Wagner: [41:32] We went to this super crazy place that most people haven't been to. It was called Pennsylvania.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:39] Why haven't anybody been there?

Robbie Wagner: [41:40] You may have heard of it.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:41] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [41:44] I'm just kidding.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:44] They're not offering the best and greatest. I don't know. It's a pretty place, very green.

Robbie Wagner: [41:49] Yeah, they have a lot of winter. They have a lot of old stone buildings and things. I think there's cool stuff. And I think Chester County or Westchester specifically or something with Chester in the name is like the fastest growing population-wise place in America. So people like it.

Chuck Carpenter: [42:07] Interesting. I know for a while we were like, let's see here. It was Las Vegas for a little bit and parts of Utah. Salt Lake, I think, was growing quite a bit. And Phoenix is always kind of up there in the top five.

Robbie Wagner: [42:19] Yeah, I don't know if it's how they do that. I'm sure they tweak the numbers based on what they wanted to say. It's probably percentage based on how many people live there already. Like the percentage, growth is probably because I doubt it's the most people, but maybe it is, I don't know.

Chuck Carpenter: [42:34] Yeah, like numbers, straight numbers. Yeah, I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [42:37] Anyway, so I was there. Kaitlyn’s family is up in Pennsylvania. So we had mostly a good time. You know, grandparents getting to see Finn and hang out and do all that. The thing that was not great was Jake somehow busted his toenail in half, and Jake is our dog, by the way, for people listening. So not a human?

Chuck Carpenter: [43:01] Not mine and yours, but yours and your wife. Yes.

Robbie Wagner: [43:03] Yeah. So all of a sudden, my father-in-law Kevin is like, hey, where's all this blood coming from? And we found out that Jake was bleeding, so we were like, okay. We looked it up, and if they break the front of the nail, you can kind of clip it or kind of handle it at home. But he broke it way at the back, which you have to take him to the vet for. So we went and sat at the emergency vet for 3 hours because the emergency vet, which rightfully so, handles like real emergencies first, right? So a dog that's dying comes in, and every time one that does, you get pushed back again. So you never have a place in line until they're done with everything critical.

Chuck Carpenter: [43:51] Got you.

Robbie Wagner: [43:51] And so basically we wait 3 hours, and then they just wrap it in a bandage, and you can go home. It's like, I could have done that at home if I had known. But.

Robbie Wagner: [43:59] Totally, they had said there like, it wasn't broken enough to rip it off. Like if it's broken enough, they'll rip the whole thing off and jest, wait. You have to wait for a dog roll back. But then we took him to our actual vet yesterday when we got home, and they were like, yeah, you're going to have to rip this off. So he had to go back in again today and like be sedated for them to like, rip it off, and like he has to wear a cone for a week, and it's this whole thing. So that was not great. But everything else was fun. We had a lot of good food and a lot of good family time.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:35] What's the local fare in something? Chester, Pennsylvania.

Robbie Wagner: [44:40] They actually have a lot of good restaurants. There's not that many chains and stuff. It's all like, hey, I want to open a restaurant. So there's a lot of variety. Like there's good Mexican stuff, at least Mexican for this side of the country. It's pretty good.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:52] Sure.

Robbie Wagner: [44:53] There's, I would say, a lot of just kind of American-y food, like, I don't know.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:59] A lot of hamburgers.

Robbie Wagner: [45:00] Like Pub Fair burgers, wings. We went to a good Italian place, actually, that had like good Italian meats and sandwiches and stuff like that. There's like a big variety, I would say.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:15] Isn't it like a traditionally Dutch and German area?

Robbie Wagner: [45:19] It is.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:20] General, the state was yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [45:21] But I don't think there's that much of that there. I don't know. I think Americans think a lot of that food is weird.

Chuck Carpenter:[45:27] They're wrong.

Robbie Wagner: [45:27] Especially.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:28] They're wrong.

Robbie Wagner: [45:28] German stuff.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:30] Very so wrong. Yeah, I don't know. It's been quite sometimes I was in Pennsylvania for a wedding, probably six or seven years ago, at least. And I recall the similar thing. I was actually looking for a soccer match and after the wedding the next day and found some kind of bar pubby, local watering hole. Some may say it was precariously open at like 08:00 a.m. On Sunday and happened to have DirecTV could show the game. And they had amazing wings. Wasn't expecting much. I was like, I don't know what's going on here. And then the wings were like apparently, that was like their thing, and people from all around would come and get the wings there. So that was kind of pleasant. But I grew up in a very German area, so things with sauerkraut and warm cabbage and potato pancakes with applesauce and sour cream, those are all kind of normal things for me, so it wasn't weird at all. White bratwurst, which is basically unheard of out here in the west, but those are the best ones.

Robbie Wagner: [46:38] Yeah, I mean, I think there wasn't really like the theme is there isn't really a cuisine, so it's like people open whatever restaurant they want. It's not like everyone has this one dish, and we're competing to be the best at it. It's not like that.

Chuck Carpenter: [46:53] Yeah, I could see that. And as the American meld continues to spread across and then other people have palates for different kinds of food, like, oh, maybe the demand for German food isn't quite as extensive as, like, I just want some great lasagna, or I want some tacos.

Robbie Wagner: [47:16] Yeah, I think it's hard to have equal demand for anything that's not Italian. I think it's just the amount of tomatoes and their slight addictiveness. Everyone just loves tomatoes and tomato sauce and all that.

Chuck Carpenter: [47:31] All the variations.

Robbie Wagner:[47:33] Yeah. But anyway, where did you go? What exotic location were you at?

Chuck Carpenter: [47:39] I was in a place called San Diego. And some people think that means Saint Diego, and some people do some other stuff. I don't know. So I've heard some variations. I'm not sure.

Robbie Wagner: [47:50] Ron Burgundy, do you would disagree?

Chuck Carpenter: [47:52] Yeah, he's fairly certain. It's not that at all. So, yeah, we were in San Diego out to celebrate a friend's. Many years of school, the masters, or something of that nature. Ph.D., I don't know, getting older.

Robbie Wagner: [48:07] You didn't find out what it was?

Chuck Carpenter: [48:09] I didn't clarify. I didn't know. It's in systems engineering, so.

Robbie Wagner: [48:13] It doesn't sound like something you could have a Ph.D. in, but maybe it is.

Chuck Carpenter: [48:16] Yes, it's probably a master's or something. Engineering in general and like a focus in systems. So did that. Some time at the beach. A little break from the desert heat and get closer to the water. California, no matter what time of year it is, it can be pretty warm. But the ocean there always cold. Doesn't matter. Always cold. So that's interesting, but a little refreshing. So did that. Maybe a controversial trip, but we did go to SeaWorld. Yes. I saw Blackfin.

Robbie Wagner: [48:50] Get out.

Chuck Carpenter: [48:51] Yeah, I saw Blackfin. I was a little uncertain but decided my children would enjoy seeing animals. So we did that, and that was fun. It is like a kind of a pro tip about SeaWorld. It's full of bars. You can get booze every 30ft all over the place. There's like every food stand sells beer, and then they have probably six or seven bars in the place.

Robbie Wagner: [49:21] That's the secret to all things that are geared towards children is they have ways to take money from the adults.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:28] Yeah, totally. And they're like, a few hours here, you're going to need this. So that's kind of funny. I didn't find Disneyland or Disney World to be quite that boozy. I mean, you can get it, but it's like, it's not all over the place.

Robbie Wagner: [49:41] Disney, they try to be a little more reputable, I guess, but they're like Chuck E. Cheese. You can get pitchers of beer easily. It depends where you're at.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:53] Yeah, we have, like, Peter Piper Pizza here. They have that. Yeah, so pretty much that's true. Like a lot of other places, they're like, it's going to get nuts and loud here and uncomfortable. Just here you go. Yeah, we think of you too. Yeah, I did that. It was my son's actual birthday weekend, so he turned six on Sunday, and so we thought like, oh, we're doing this trip, and we're pushing off your birthday party for a week, so let's do something fun like the beach and go to SeaWorld.

Robbie Wagner: [50:24] Nice.

Chuck Carpenter: [50:25] It was a lot of sun.

Robbie Wagner: [50:27] Yeah, that's it. That's really. Do you want to talk about your amazing meet-up with our employees?

Chuck Carpenter: [50:35] Okay, sure. Yeah, I guess that was like a part I forgot I did that. There were so many other interesting things. Yeah. On Friday, I had breakfast with a couple of employees. One who happens to live there and another who is from there, and so was visiting Jared and Marika. We were targeting this really cool breakfast place that did like, breakfast fried rice and breakfast pasta and then more traditional breakfast things. And it seemed like it was a little cool culinary experience. I'm thinking Friday, like, 9 o'clock. People have to be at work so we can get there. No, there was like a 45 minutes line.

Robbie Wagner: [51:11] Oh, wow.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:12] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [51:13] Just for throwing some eggs on some pasta.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:16] Exactly. Isn't that carbonara? I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [51:19] You cook carbonara too long, and then you have breakfast pasta.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:23] Yeah, exactly. We're not good at carbonara, so we spun it off. So we went downstairs to a different place. Okay. It was fine. It was like normal breakfasty things, but it was slow and overpriced and whatever else. But we had nice conversations, and it was good to have some, like, base time shout out. You didn't see any of our employees in Pennsylvania?

Robbie Wagner: [51:47] No.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:48] Surprisingly fastest growing county in the United States is what I heard.

Robbie Wagner: [51:52] Yeah, I mean, it's certainly cheaper to live there than it is to live here. So I could see people moving there. So we went to breakfast at one place in Phoenixville where let's see, my brother-in-law's girlfriend works. She was working there, and we went to visit and have breakfast and stuff. But that's a cool little town. Like, you can walk to everything. And I could see people moving there because it's like if you want a cool kind of downtown, be able to walk to everything by, but you don't want to spend a million dollars on the house. Like, here you go. So I could see the appeal, for sure.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:29] Yeah. Conversely, San Diego, the real estate there is pretty crazy. We were like, not even quite near the beach. We were in San Diego County and coming into downtown well, coming into the main city area, we were in an outside city called Santee, and they have a Costco. I appreciate that. And so some less expensive gas and stopped kind of outside of there. And my wife was looking on realtor.com, as she does when we travel. She's like, oh, I'm curious, what's it like here?

Robbie Wagner: [53:01] Can we live here?

Chuck Carpenter: [53:02] Yeah, just really just wants to know, like, what's the setup and whatever else. Not necessarily a desire to go to California or San Diego, although very many pleasant parts there. And it was like 1700 square foot house that probably could use some updating and work. $1 million? Yeah, a million. This is what a million dollars gets you.

Robbie Wagner:[53:25] I saw a map, I forget where, maybe it was on Twitter, but it was like, what you have to make in each city kind of area to live there or buy a house there.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:34] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [53:35] And I think DC was like 100K salary or something, which doesn't even sound high enough to me. I guess there's some really shitty houses you can get.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:44] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [53:45] But San Francisco, I think, was like 350k. Oh, yeah. It was like your minimum salary to own a house. Yeah, it's like, wow, that's ridiculous.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:54] I remember a thing a couple of years ago and like under 100K puts you in the poverty line in San Francisco. This was a couple of years ago. So that just goes to show you how big tech has kind of really caused issues in the Bay Area. The commoditization of real estate and affordable housing and all that kind of stuff is kind of out the window. And so anybody who's going to service those in the cities now has to live way outside the city and all kinds of transport costs and issues there.

Robbie Wagner: [54:32] Yeah. I never really understood how the subsidized housing worked because if I'm someone that's under the poverty line and you give me a house I can afford in this area, okay, cool. But if I'm going to go to dinner or whatever, like, buy a thing ever in life, I don't have the money for that because I'm in the most expensive area ever. So who would want that? I guess people do, but maybe if they want to work at some of those places there to make the more money for the lower-wage jobs, that kind of makes sense. I guess.

Chuck Carpenter:[55:05] It does, yeah. In that sense, like, I want to be close to where I'm commuting most of the time. Right, right. Yeah. Like you said, in terms of entertainment, maybe there's some false assumptions there around entertainment budget, to begin with.

Robbie Wagner: [55:20] Yeah, true.

Chuck Carpenter: [55:21] Hey, I'm just trying to do better and be close to my family, and maybe like, that gives kids an opportunity in a better school district and things like that too.

Robbie Wagner:[55:31] That's true.

Chuck Carpenter: [55:32] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [55:34] There's positive things. I always thought about that. Like there was a lot of that around, like Alexandria, and I'm like going out to dinner and not able to afford dinner. I mean, I can, obviously, but it's expensive enough that I'm thinking twice about going back to dinner. Right. And then thinking about people that make less money than me, how they do that.

Chuck Carpenter: [55:53] Right. The service, the people that are servicing the community there. If you're giving me a Whole Foods and I have a Safeway budget, not great, for sure. So what am I supposed to do? Travel way out to get to go to a grocery store? No? There needs to be median options.

Robbie Wagner: [56:14] Yeah, I don't know. It's getting a little too deep and heavy, though. But we're at the end here. So before we end, I will mention that we have scheduled our NFT drop. So I think it was September 15. I honestly don't remember.

Chuck Carpenter: [56:31] That sounds right. Mid-September Yeah, I think the 15th.

Robbie Wagner: [56:33] So we have four tiers. One is bronze, which basically is just access to the community, get into our discord, get future opportunities to buy exclusive whiskies and things we pick. We have silver, which is basically the same, except you also get some branded swag, more things to show your support of the community. And then the one everyone is probably going to be interested in is the gold tier, which is where we do one or two barrel picks a year, and we're just going to send them to you, so you get access to the community, the swag and the barrel picks, all for the gold tier. And then if you are crazy, want to spend a ton of money for whatever reason, which we love you if you do. There are two. I think two diamond-tier ones.

Chuck Carpenter: [57:20] Two spots.

Robbie Wagner: [57:21] Yeah. Which is like all of that. Plus, you get extra bottles of the whiskey we pick, and you get a chance to be on the podcast. You get a chance to help us pick the next whiskey. You get basically as much whiskey as you want from our offices. Like if you're ever around, come hang out, we'll give you some whiskey, we'll go to dinner, do whatever. You basically get access to us within reason. We're not going to hang out with you every day. But that's kind of the diamond tier. Tom Preston Warner, if you're listening, you can afford it.

Chuck Carpenter: [57:53] That's very subtle. Yeah, very subtle.

Robbie Wagner: [57:56] I think it's going to have to be a special kind of person that wants to buy it because I think the diamond tier is like 2500. Is that what we decided?

Chuck Carpenter: [58:05] I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [58:06] Something like that. It's expensive.

Chuck Carpenter: [58:07] That sounds about right.

Robbie Wagner: [58:08] It's expensive.

Chuck Carpenter: [58:09] It's actually not expensive. For all that, you get how much of my time I have to spend? It's like unless that's true. This is the west coast wing. There's two. Somebody should buy the West Coast, and somebody should buy the East Coast. We can't. If both were on the East Coast. How much time can you spend? It's hard to say.

Robbie Wagner: [58:27] I don't have time. Plus, I'm not fun. Chuck's fun. You want to hang out with Chuck.

Chuck Carpenter: [58:31] They've heard the show. They know this. They can make their own assumptions here. Yeah. All right.

Robbie Wagner: [58:36] Anyway, so be on the lookout for that. We will talk more about the specifics behind all of those, probably I forget what episode this is because we've moved things around, but we're trying to do the 50th episode is like a long talk about the NFT and how it will work and whatever. So that's a couple of episodes from now, I think.

Chuck Carpenter: [58:53] Something like that.

Robbie Wagner: [58:53] We'll see. Thanks, everybody, for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe, and we will catch you next time.

Chuck Carpenter: [59:05] Thanks for listening to Whiskey Web and Whatnot. This podcast is brought to you by Ship Shape and produced by Podcast Royale. If you like this episode, consider sharing it with a friend or two and leave us a rating, maybe a review, as long as it's good.

Robbie Wagner: [59:20] You can subscribe to future episode on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For more info about Ship Shape, and the show, check out our website at shipshape.io.