Oct. 27, 2022

Multi-Page Apps, Prefetch vs Preload, and Web Nostalgia


While multi-page apps (MPAs) seem like a new fixation for the developer community, they’re pretty ancient news. If you were browsing the web in the 90s, you were likely visiting a multi-page app. Lucky for us, web tech improved, and made the entire experience of multi-page apps more appealing.

One of the cons of MPAs is that they don’t have preload and prefetch out of the box. Single-page apps (SPAs) on the other hand give you the power to decide how your site loads by loading all the resources for your current page and fetching resources for a page you might navigate to after. This might seem small but it makes a huge impact on your site. 

The good news is, more computing power gave way to better server-rendered technology, a huge win for multi-page apps. Unlike single-page apps (SPAs), multi-page apps parse very little JavaScript. That shaves seconds off your initial load which is no small feat. 

In this episode, Chuck and Robbie discuss the pros and cons of multi-page apps, the benefits and the distinction between prefetch vs preload, and the good old days on the internet.

 

Key Takeaways

  • [02:10] - A whiskey review - Wolves Signature Blend Special Release.
  • [08:02] - Chuck and Robbie discuss multi-page apps.
  • [13:46] - Advantages and disadvantages of multi-page apps.
  • [27:13] - Robbie’s opinion on the React Framework.  
  • [35:47] - Chuck and Robbie reminisce about StumbleUpon and earlier social media sites.
  • [41:52] - Chuck and Robbie discuss their parents’ internet use.
  • [44:30] - Chuck and Robbie talk about their weekend.

 

Quotes

[8:15] - “Were you around in 1998 when the Internet was first blowing up? You were also on a multi-page app. It was just served by different technologies.” ~ Chuck Carpenter

[10:56] - “Just HTML is actually pretty good, and it feels like people getting into the industry these days aren't getting exposed to it enough.” ~ Robbie Wagner

[29:29] - “I'm sorry for all of our Ember listeners who are here to listen to me talk about good things about Ember, but the new add-on V2 stuff is some bullshit.” ~ Robbie Wagner

 

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Transcript

Robbie Wagner: [00:09] What's going on, everybody? Welcome to another Whiskey Web and Whatnot with myself, Robert William Wagner and my cohost as always Charles William Carpenter III.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [00:24] Hello Robert. Robert the first of his name. Oh, I don't know.
 
Robbie Wagner: [00:29] Where do you hail from, Sir Charles?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [00:32] You sound like you're from London. That's as much as I can carry it on. You'd be good if I can do a show and the whole show in an accent, but I don't think it's going to happen this time.
 
Robbie Wagner: [00:43] I used to be able to do a good accent, but I'm not able to do it very well anymore.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [00:47] Your accent seems to float a bit in and out from Australian to English.
 
Robbie Wagner: [00:54]Yeah, I'm out of practice.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [00:57] Alright.
 
Robbie Wagner: [00:58] Anyway, so quick plug before we start. NFT is still out there. Bitsy.com/shipshapecode. Go check it out. Also plug. Ship Shape is a company we work for. Check us. ShipShape.io. We have lots of experience in React and Nuxt JS. And we're really doing a lot of Astro and Solid now. So if you need any kind of new hot JavaScript apps, hit us up. There's a contact form on there. You can just spam it all day with lots of Russian or stuff we can't read. People like to do that.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [01:28] It's perfect.
 
Robbie Wagner: [01:29] Yeah. ShipShape.io.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [01:32] I say that in Russian. I have no idea.
 
Robbie Wagner: [01:36] Yeah, I was watching just a little tangent here. We can pour some whiskey while we're on selling you this.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [01:42] Shouldn't we talk about the whiskey first?
 
Robbie Wagner: [01:44] Well, we will, but yeah.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [01:45] Okay.
 
Robbie Wagner: [01:46] Well, not especially. So there was this thing on Twitter. It was a Russian propaganda video about people trying to move to the US. Have you seen that?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [01:54] No.
 
Robbie Wagner: [01:54] It was like they were on a plane, and there were just all these like, things where it's like, oh, the people behind you are vegetarian, so we're going to have to take away your meal that has meat in it because it's upsetting them. Things about how Americas are so offended by everything. It was funny, but anyway. All right, what do we got today, Chuck?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [02:13] All right. Today's contestant is the Wolves Signature Blend Special release by John Buscemi and James Bond. Those are fake names, clearly. Since this is a California whiskey, it's 103 proof. It is distilled craft beer. Not a grain mash, apparently. So I think that like beer and whiskey or whatever. When they're initially doing the fermentation right, they're like kind of similar. So I guess this is that.
 
Robbie Wagner: [02:42] Yeah, but I think it's a lot more hops and a lot less green, probably. It's probably hops and corn, and the corn is probably similar. The idea is it wasn't a mash made for whiskey. It's like a craft beer that's been distilled further.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [02:57] Yes. So cut with rye whiskey. So it's a mixture of that hot-flavored whiskey and a rye whiskey. The beer distillates in this release include whiskey distilled from stout beer aged in used French oak for nine years. That's not bad. Whiskey distilled from a California pale ale, aged and used French oak barrels for seven years. And then two seven-year rye whiskies aged in New American oak. So that's a heck of a mix. It's very specific.
 
Robbie Wagner: [03:27] Yeah. I mean, this stuff is very prestigious. I think a lot of work goes into this. It's a lot different than whiskey that you would normally have. From what I can see. Like, they say it sells out within minutes on their site every time they put it out.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [03:42] Funny.
 
Robbie Wagner: [03:42] This one was not because it's from a third-party site.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [11:48] You have to say the price reflects its difficulty in that way, then, because it is not inexpensive.
 
Robbie Wagner: [03:52] I can smell the hops on here.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [03:53] Oh, yeah. I smell a little stout, too. Affected by that.
 
Robbie Wagner: [03:58] Yeah, it's like an IPA whiskey.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [04:00] All right, we'll see how that goes. It's almost got, like a peaty quality to it, which is probably the hops.

Robbie Wagner: [04:07] Oh, wow.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [04:08] Yeah, and a little, I don't know, malty, kind of like chocolate malt or something to it. To me.
 
Robbie Wagner: [04:17] Yeah. There's the initial hit of, like, it's somewhat Scotchy, a little smoky, little peaty, and then yeah, the finish is very hoppy. I got a lot of hops in my mouth now.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [04:28] It's almost like you probably haven't done this because it's illegal in Virginia, but if you have an edible that has a little bit of that marijuana in it, and then you taste the edible, and then you taste a little bit of lingering something, that's what hops remind me of.
 
Robbie Wagner: [04:46] Yeah, it's a similar smell and taste.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [04:50]  I would say a little bit of wood, a little bit of spice in there too, but definitely like this musty, I don't know.
 
Robbie Wagner: [05:02] Can you taste that French oak?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [05:04] Just the used one. I can tell that this oak definitely was used.
 
Robbie Wagner: [05:08] Yeah, it's got that used quality to it.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [05:12] Yeah. It's actually pretty smooth, though, once you kind of have a second of it.
 
Robbie Wagner: [05:16] I feel like just reading that thing, of the four different things, they mix together showed, like, how much science is in this mix.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [05:25] Right.
 
Robbie Wagner: [05:26] It's not something that I would gravitate towards as my favorite because I hate hops. Hate them. But it's not bad. Like, I'm not like, oh, I hate it so much, I can't drink it. I like the way they've used the hops. It's not super overwhelming. So yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting for the price point. I don't know that it's like I wasn't super blown away by this being different, other than there's, like, a little bit of hops to it. So I'm going to say let's give it a six.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [05:56] I feel like that's generous. I mean, it is unique, so I'm going to say that. And I can see this being very appealing to the craft beer types and also do a little bit of whiskey, just kind of blending some of their love together. So I think it's interesting, and it's worth trying, given the way they described it. Yeah, it's a little pricey to, like, get in the door for that, but obviously, it's complicated, so there's that around it. Although High West, the guy who originated High West, he was a chemist, and then he moved over and used a lot of chemical property things to blend their whiskies together. So, you know, I can see where science gets involved here. Yeah, it's interesting. I can't say I would like, reach for it regularly, but maybe it's a little better than, like, Scotch's for me personally in general. So it's like lighter on those flavors. I'm going just five, though, because if I'm going down that path, I tend to like some Japanese whiskies better.
 
Robbie Wagner: [06:51] Yeah, that's fair.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [06:53] A little more smoke than peat kind of thing.
 
Robbie Wagner: [06:55] I honestly just raised it up due to the price point and notoriety of it. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, five is fair, but I'm going to stick with six, I think. And I realized while you were talking that we kind of just rate stuff, and we don't explain the system. So if anyone happens to be listening to this as the only episode they listen to, for some reason, it's out of eight tentacles, so it's not out of ten. Like, these things aren't super bad. These are decent.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [07:24] Yeah, I guess they feel like if you haven't heard another episode before, then you will definitely be confused. And so, in an effort to reduce confusion, I will try to describe said scale each time. So five means above average because of its uniqueness, and it doesn't taste bad, but I'm not like, whoa, this is great. You have got to go and get this right now. Like, hey, if you have a chance to try it, get a dram at a bar or something like that. I could see that as a thing. Buy the whole bottle, I don't know.
 
Robbie Wagner: [08:00] Yeah, that's fair. So let's talk about multi-page apps.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [08:06] Multi-page apps. I love this whole thing where there's like the latest thing. Multi-page apps. Just kidding. Were you around in 1998 when the Internet was first blowing up? You were also on a multi-page app? It was just served by different technologies.
 
Robbie Wagner: [08:24] Yeah, yeah, I think they describe it really well in the Astro docs. It's like to the effect of this is the same as all server-rendered apps have always been. It's just the server-rendered technology has now changed to be JavaScript based versus, like, PHP or whatever you might have used in the past. So there's less friction to it to where it's like the same as if you were developing a Next JS app, let's say, in the sense of, like, you import things, and you write normal JavaScript and whatever, but then your output gets all server-rendered. So it's like the best of both worlds in a developer ergonomics standpoint and then also shipping those, like, classic multi-page apps.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [09:08] Yeah. So basically, technology and machines have become more powerful, and so we can start to look at, hey, can this big powerful machine over here as the server do a little more for us? Instead of like shipping all these things and asking the clients or the user's browser to parse through all that and do all that for us. We're like. Let's use the big machine and then give you just a little bit and then start to look at how networks have improved and caching things have improved and all of that kind of stuff to even take it further now that didn't exist 20 years ago when people started going down this path.
 
Robbie Wagner: [09:49] Yeah, and when people started doing this single page app type of thing, it was the case that if you shipped it to the browser first, usually your personal machines were much more performant than whatever was rendering server side. So it was like just ship everything over and then let it happen locally, which made a lot of sense. But now compute power is so cheap that it's just like, let's just do it elsewhere. And people are realizing, okay, we have this thing that's wrapped in tons of JavaScript, and it does give us some nice things, but also, we don't use it on our things. Like most of it is static HTML and styles, and then we want to have these little things of interactivity and spots, which is like perfect for just throwing in a SolidJS component or something. And that makes a lot more sense than making your entire app, like needing to have a link component and needing to have like a special drop-down components of using a select and like all this stuff that people are used to with React, just do it with the normal HTML standards and then it's accessible too.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [10:55] Yeah, exactly. Just HTML is actually pretty good, and it feels like people getting into the industry these days aren't getting exposed to it enough. At first. I mean, I learned HTML because what was it like maybe I think I had like a GeoCities site or something crazy like that that I wanted to update and change and add content to, and so I had to learn all the HTML tags to do that. But then, now you're just creating custom components, and we're losing a lot of context around what the HTML was and its intended purpose. And it's interesting because it was like so much of a fight for semantic document structure, and then JSX was kind of like sorta yeah.
 
Robbie Wagner: [11:41] Would you like this to look much worse? Here you go.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [11:44] Would you like a lot of divs or fragments? Perfect. We got those.
 
Robbie Wagner: [11:48] Yeah, I mean, I saw a tweet the other day that was, like, I forget the exact wording, but it's something to the effect of someone that was like a senior or architect-level React developer was asked in an interview to not use a material design framework or something, and then they weren't able to close an input tag or something. Like, they just didn't understand how that worked, and it's like, oh, my God.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [12:13] That an input doesn't have children. It was an open-book test, and they weren't able to find the answer by Googling either.
 
Robbie Wagner: [12:21] Oh, was it? Did you read about that, too?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [12:23] I did. I thought I even shared it, but. I don't know.
 
Robbie Wagner: [12:26] Maybe you did. I don't know. A lot of the things you share I also stumbled upon on Twitter.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [12:32] Yeah. Remember that site? StumbleUpon.
 
Robbie Wagner: [12:35] I do, yes. That was a scary thing. We can circle back to that.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [12:40] Okay, that's fair. That sounds very whatnot.
 
Robbie Wagner: [12:42] Yeah. So I think the first thing here is, why didn't they come up with a better acronym for multi-page apps? They should have been more creative because you have SPA for a single page, and then you have MPA for multi-page.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [12:55] Oompa Loompa doom-pa-dee-do.
 
Robbie Wagner: [12:58] They could have done, like, rearranged it and made it amp, but I guess amp is already a thing. Or, like pam or map or something.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [13:05] Pam, the spray or the character from the office. This is why you're not in marketing?
 
Robbie Wagner: [13:11] No, I can do marketing campaigns, but I can make sure, like, I know stuff is good when I see it.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [13:17] You can identify quality.
 
Robbie Wagner: [13:19] Yeah.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [13:19] I don't know if that's a career track, though.
 
Robbie Wagner: [13:22] No, I don't think it is, unfortunately.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [13:25] Yeah. You're like, oh, I see React. I don't like it. Everybody loves it. Nope. See, there you go. You're bad.
 
Robbie Wagner: [13:33] Yeah, I still really want to have that guy on that, like, says the only thing React is good at is being popular. That he never responded to me. I wish I knew his name. I should call him out on every episode until someone who knows him can get him on here.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [13:44] Yeah, that's true. Well, anyway, tell us about the good parts. I guess we've kind of been talking about the good parts.
 
Robbie Wagner: [13:50] Let's talk about the bad parts, though.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [13:52] What's wrong with it? Well, what's wrong with the old way?
 
Robbie Wagner: [13:54] Yeah, I'll just go down my list here because I don't want to get confused. So the big advantage or advantages to multi-page apps are you're your initial loading time is much faster, so there's little to no JavaScript to parse. So you kind of load your page, and it just loads that little part of your app. Whereas, like a single page app, frequently you're loading all of the JavaScript for your entire app. Like, we've gotten better at that now to where you're not, but it originally was, like, here's, however many megabytes of JavaScript depending on how big your app is, and just wait for that to parse. That's going to be, like, 3 seconds. 4 seconds, 5 seconds. I mean, really? Bad cases, you're up to like 10 seconds on some things. So that's a huge hit to your initial load. But it's more around the way apps would work on your phone, right? You have that really big download to start, and then it's like nice and fast and snappy and has animations and does cool stuff. So that was kind of the appeal. One of the things you don't have in a multi-page app is nice page transition animations. So there are a lot of browser APIs coming out for like, the I forget what they are. I think it's actually called like page transitions API or something like that.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [15:08] That sounds about right. Very logical.
 
Robbie Wagner: [15:10] And then there's like shared elements something. So there's two different ones. One is like the thing you're used to in a SPA where it's like, fade my whole page out, fade it back in. The other one is like the shared elements thing is you can say my nav bar is shared, like, make sure that fades or stays as part of the app, and we don't have to rerender that nav bar for every page. So you can do smart stuff there. So once browsers fix that, that gets rid of one of the advantages of a single-page app. And then routing in a multi-page app is another thing that's like it just works, right, because the browser knows how to render pages at different spots. So it's just finding that HTML file and serving it to you versus like hijacking that whole process and needing to figure out how do the back and forward buttons work and how do we fake a render when a page changes. And then for an accessibility standpoint, you have to announce that the pages have changed because they didn't really change. You just, like, click the thing, and it loaded some more stuff, but it's not a new page. So there's a lot of stuff that comes back to bite you there.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [16:20] You basically have a hack like the native browser APIs, and you've got to mess with history and push a different URL in there even though you didn't actually change a directory structure, which is what it's supposed to reflect and yeah, all kinds of things like that.
 
Robbie Wagner: [16:34] Yeah. So basically, the gist is whenever you can remove some hacks that we put in because the thing didn't work how we wanted and replace it with just the way browsers work natively. You're going to get better performance. Better accessibility. Better long-term support. And none of this stuff is necessarily supported forever and then. You know. It's just a better place to be in because then you can sprinkle little bits of weirdness or cool animations or stuff on top, and that's easier to swap out if it becomes not supported. Or there's a better thing versus your whole app is written in React. You need to rewrite it all in the next hot framework, right?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [17:15] Yeah, rethink it again and go back to the drawing board. Hey, how about we don't? We don't again. Yeah, we simplify it.
 
Robbie Wagner: [17:24] Yeah. And the thing that kind of got us down this path for this episode, for this topic here, was I had just been curious because I didn't actually really know the difference between prefetch and preload. So you've probably seen those on things. Like you have a link with rel equals prefetch or preload. And it's to load some things, but no one ever really explains. Like what do you use when? Because a lot of these, that's one of the advantages of the single page apps is these frameworks will just add that stuff for you because they're like. All right. I know on your homepage, you've got a link to these five other pages. So we want to go ahead and start the loading for those other pages as soon as we can so that even though our first initial load is really bad, whenever you're moving around, everything feels really seamless because we've already loaded everything for all the other pages. So a lot of times, I looked at our site now in Nuxt, and it actually uses preload, which is the more heavy-handed one. And the way that I understood it is preload is like, it's high-priority stuff in your critical path, and it's guaranteed. It's basically a fetch. Like, go fetch this thing. So it's just kicking off that request, and it just starts as part of it prioritizes itself similarly to the content to load the page you're on now. So it's like part of that huge waterfall. It's not going to block your page necessarily, but it's like going to be loaded as part of that load time. So it's going to mess a little bit with your time to interactive, potentially, depending on what you're loading. Whereas prefetch is a low-priority hint that's just telling the browser, okay, you might go to one of these pages here in a minute, like, all right, you're on the home page. You're maybe going to go to the about page in a little bit. So whenever you're cool with a browser, and you have some time and free cycles, go load this stuff. It's not super important, but just grab it whenever you get a chance. So that is better for, like, imagine someone is on some really bad 3G network somewhere and you have preloads on every page on your site. It's going to be loading that stuff forever because it's saying these are just one-to-one fetches, and it's got to do them. It's not an optional thing. So that's going to cause them to have a long loading time. It's going to use a lot of data. If people have like low amounts of data on their plans, it's going to use a lot more data from your server. Like if you have some kind of cap on how much you can ship from your server or something too. It's just very heavy-handed. So they recommend you use preload only for critical past stuff. Like, if you know, I'm going to switch pages, and I want a couple of styles or images for that first block of that page to definitely load because that's what they're going to hit first. And everything else can be prefetched or something. All that to say. Multi-page apps don't have any of that out of the box. So there is Astro package for it which, interestingly, doesn't show up in integrations anymore for some reason, it did the other day. So I'm hoping they're not getting rid of it. But I can still find it on GitHub, and it basically just allows you to put rel equals prefetch on like all of your anchor tags, and it will automatically kick off those requests. So going to be trying that out. And we're almost done with our Astro rewrite of our site. So I'm going to be doing some last benchmarks of our existing site that's in Nuxt, get those numbers, then do some benchmarks of the Astro site as it is, play around with that, then do the prefetch and see what our second page load times become. See if there's a big improvement or not from that. I wouldn't imagine it's too crazy. It's probably just like if you prefetch some images, it would probably help, but the amount of HTML stuff we have is minimal.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [21:19] Yeah, I would think it would be more about the big header images or something like that. Maybe if you had customized sponsor something on certain pages that didn't initially load, maybe something like that would be helpful. I can see basically anything that's in your immediate view pane that could have a weird flash of content or something you might want to try to preface. But aside from that.
 
Robbie Wagner: [21:42] So those you would want preload, though, because then you can guarantee it's not going to load that page until your font's ready, right? Like it holds up the on-ready event, whereas prefetch doesn't.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [21:54] Yeah, okay. That way, you avoid the flash of unstyled content kind of thing. Interesting. Yeah, the transitions don't really bother me as much, but I know some people are like, wait, I'm used to this. I don't really want to lose it for other reasons. But maybe one big pro or con to the other is state management, essentially. So when you're thinking about multi-page app and not like a multi-page site, then a lot of time there's some state that goes along with that, right? And then you have to be constantly fetching a state. I mean, you could to a degree, and if you're backing it with an API that's well cached or something else, or you can have, I don't know, local database strategies or local storage strategies to sort of use for that. But that's probably at least a thought paradigm there, right? Yeah, it's completely different. You don't have some state management library that you're reaching for that you used to using in the former, I think.
 
Robbie Wagner: [22:59] Yeah, I mean, state management, I think, is a hotly debated topic anyway. Like we used to have this kind of idea of everything can kind of be global if you want, it doesn't really matter, it doesn't have to be immutable. And then React came in with like redux and stuff and was like, no, everything is transactional, it's all immutable, you can't ever change your state. Yeah, I think we've kind of backtracked a bit from that now, but yeah, I think depending on your mental model around state in general, yes. You would need to find a library or a philosophy that you agree with to manage your state. And that's something I probably should have written up here, but we can research that more and talk about that another time because I don't know of what might work in multi-page apps.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [23:46] Yeah, I mean, I would think that like, IndexedDB or something like that is starting to get more pervasive and powerful, and so something like that could just be like, great, let's just use local databases and write and draw from that.
 
Robbie Wagner: [24:01] Yeah, you could probably use Orbit. I don't know how it would work. Like making sure the Orbit scripts were loaded on every page. You're shaking your head a lot, I guess, because it's JSONAPI.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [24:13] Yeah, there's that for start, and it's really, I don't know, I mean, maybe there's still, I mean, it's really complex, right? And we're talking about reducing complexity.
 
Robbie Wagner: [24:22] True.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [24:23] But then again, this is an app, and there are certain things in memory that do need to work a particular way when we're talking about an app versus just a normal site, an informational site.
 
Robbie Wagner: [24:35] Yeah, what I was getting at was like some library that is capable of using IndexedDB or something locally, but then also periodically syncing that to your real API or whatever.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [24:50] Yeah, like some background syncing which is kind of nice because, again, your app is going to need persistency at some point and not just when you click form buttons. I don't know.
 
Robbie Wagner: [25:03] Yeah, we'll have to make that a topic for another episode of all the different ways to do that because I know Astro has some examples of, like what if you wanted to add a cart to your app, right, and that's your only thing that kind of needs state or JavaScript at all. Yeah, okay, well, I think they have examples around that, so I have to look at that more.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [25:22] I think a really interesting example in that paradigm would be to do an admin app, right? You have tables and forms essentially, and it's entity management and then authentication, which obviously you can layer in from a lot of different places. But I think that would be a really good example in use case for, like here it is, a multi-page, not site, but a multi-page appears. The app. Here's what a lot of apps do. They list entities, they edit them, they create them. Let's try and do that.
 
Robbie Wagner: [25:53] So the Swatch Admin app is going to be the first trial?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [25:59] Yeah, I mean, it could be I think if you were able to come. So like, a really popular package is called React Admin, and we love or hate it. I've had mixed experiences with it. It is really easy to spin up and then give it some information about your entities and then fetch those and stuff. And then it just works. It just gives you that it's like cool login, lists of users, lists of whatever, lists of colors, palettes for the Swatch thing. And if you just follow its way and be unopinionated, it actually just works pretty well. And so if you're able to do that with some other technologies and prove like, yeah, here's that it's pretty simple and it's using these really fast proven basic technologies.
 
Robbie Wagner: [26:46] Yeah, I would have to look into what React Admin gives you because you would just have to build the kind of interactive bits in some kind of real framework. Like we wouldn't use React because we would either use Preact or Solid JS
 
Chuck Carpenter: [27:02] Something of that nature.
 
Robbie Wagner: [27:04] Something that's smaller and faster and isn't made by Facebook.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [27:08] Meta, whatever.
 
Robbie Wagner: [27:09] They're still Facebook. They just changed their name to Meta so that they can go out of business and stop using React.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [27:17] I'm not sure, but what is your opinion on this React framework? It's very unclear to me.
 
Robbie Wagner: [27:22] Oh, it's great.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [27:23] Yeah, perfect love it. Everything you ever wanted?
 
Robbie Wagner: [27:27] I think I would add an addendum to the only thing. It's good as being popular as it's also good at changing people's minds and pushing the story forward of technology. So it's done good things in terms of that, but I don't think it's ever been like the thing I would reach for. It's just the thing that everyone knows and has replaced their basic HTML knowledge, which is not great for anyone.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [27:52] Right? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely changed the paradigms of how some things are done for better or worse, and many opinions on all sides about that. So I think that is interesting, and there's a lot of really smart people that are involved in the community that are doing interesting things with it that are convinced that it is a good way to do things. So that's also interesting to me sometimes because you see both sides of the coin. Maybe that's some more questions that we have for guests in the future too. It's just sort of like, what are you seeing as like the biggest values here, and why not this other thing?
 
Robbie Wagner: [28:29] Well, I do wonder if some of the people who see a lot of value in React aside from the hiring side or that it's what people know kind of argument if they're similar to. Me on the Ember side where it's like, it's what I'm used to, it's what I have tons and tons of like a decade of knowledge in. So I'm super productive in it. I think it's the best tool because of that. Do they experiment with the new stuff and still go, oh, SolidJS is not good because React does X-Y-Z and Solid doesn't? Or do they not touch the new stuff? Like I would be interested in that because I think it's more of the former or I forget which I said when they don't touch the new stuff is, I think, the problem.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [29:11] Yeah. I mean, if you were approaching Ember today, would you feel the same way? It's hard to say. Yeah, right, because you're just highly biased based on that time, effort, and the things that have clicked for you.
 
Robbie Wagner: [29:23] Yeah. And I'm going to have a hot take here, and I'm sorry for all of our Ember listeners who are here to listen to me talk about good things about Ember, but the new add-on V2 stuff is some bullshit. It is like, how can I configure infinite webpack and roll up and all these things like we've been avoiding doing for years is now what you have to do in the name of creating correct JavaScript. And it's all like, oh well, we want it to be the same as the rest of the community. We want you to be able to import it normally and have all these build tools work, and it's like, but wait a minute, why? Because I'm going to be using this add-on in an Ember app, not a React app or something else. So why does it matter? Like, yes, it might help tree shaking or like a couple of things there where you get a little bit smaller app, or okay, I get you. But most of the apps that Ember powers are like huge dashboards and stuff where you don't care as much. So it feels like a huge developer experience hit because I used to be able to go, like, Ember install this thing, and it would run blueprints, it would set up configs for me, it would do all the magic to where all I do is install it and use it. And that's the big selling point of Ember or has been. And now it's like, okay, well, instead of ember install, you're going to do a normal NPM or Yarn or Pnpm or whatever install. There's going to be no magic config. Blueprints won't work. You can put your files anywhere now because you're importing everything, and there's no like magic. This is a components folder, and it just works because these are components or like all the magic is gone to where the only thing that's familiar is like the handlebar syntax and like, you know, stuff you used to there. But the entire like I'm going to have to spend weeks at a time in webpack and roll up and stuff, I hate now because someone thought that was a good idea. So rant over.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [31:16] But this is not hot take is that this isn't the first time you've mentioned this once before. I feel like the changes in that API have come up before, and yeah, I mean, at a certain point, if you disenfranchise a bunch of people who are contributors, like long-term contributors, and you make it hard for them to update 30 add-ons and at some point impossible, then they're just going to say, I'm not updating this anymore and see you later.
 
Robbie Wagner: [31:48] Yeah, I mean, I know for a fact that Chris Manson and I maintain probably half the add-ons that exist, which sounds like a lot. Yeah, and it is a lot. And I think neither of us are huge mono repo fans or fans of V2 add-ons or fans of forcing embroider on everyone when it's not ready, and half the add-ons don't work. So that being said, maybe we should have some more say in how it's like, or of course, there's the alternative where the people that are pushing these changes come in and help everyone update their add-ons, but they aren't doing that so far.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [32:27] Well, so this is a question for the core team essentially, right? I mean, who's fostering these changes along?
 
Robbie Wagner: [32:34] Well, yeah, I don't really know. I haven't been to the meetings in a while, so I don't really know how things are getting pushed or what the dynamic is there because they change the meeting time and it's like during meetings I have for clients all the time, so I haven't been in months and months and months. So all I kind of do is keep Ember inspector afloat, like merge a few things, and I haven't updated our add-ons in a really long time. I was at the weird in-between part where I got everything embroider compatible, but didn't do like V2 add-ons or mono repos or like the big new new push and that stuff is hard. Like I've been doing that for a new add-on I'm working on, and it's I mean, shout out to Null Vox because he has been really helping me with all of that because he understands that and knows how it all works.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [33:28] So what you're saying is he should just take over all of your addons?
 
Robbie Wagner: [33:32] I'm not going to put that on, but yeah, I think there are people that like it, especially people that have had more exposure to other frameworks and want some of the nice things they have and want it to be more normal. But for those of us who have done Ember for ten years and it's supposed to be magic, I would much rather even if there's more steps now. Right, okay. So the components can now be in source slash my folder slash other thing slash components wherever I want it to be. Right, okay, cool, that's fine. I want to still ship my magic blueprints. I just want you to now tell me where's the folder this thing is in so that I can know where to go edit it or whatever. Like, there should be some in between where it's not just you lose all possible magic. There should be, like, configurable magic where some people get it, or if you do something differently, you don't get it. Like, the opinions of Ember are the big selling point of, like, you don't have to think about where stuff goes or what you how you do certain things, and now you do.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [34:31] Yeah, I see. I mean, backwards compatibility. Essentially what you're saying is, okay, if you want to go to a different direction, but can we look at not breaking everything I've done for, whatever, 5 10 years?
 
Robbie Wagner: [34:47] Yeah, it's a weird setup because it is backwards compatible. Like, there's an add-on V1 chim or something, and it basically ships it to normal Ember apps that aren't using embroider and stuff works how it used to with the magic and stuff. And I think part of the problem here is just like, I've tried to adopt all the new hotness for fun because I'm like, oh, I'm making a new add-ons. Let's do it. But they're like, no, no, it's not all ready yet. You don't have to use it now. You can use the normal add-ons or whatever.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [35:16] Right. That's your fault.
 
Robbie Wagner: [35:18] And all of the magic will continue to work, I think, through Ember 4, they won't drop it totally to embroider. And you have to be 100% compatible until, like, Ember 5, probably, so right. So, yeah, part of it is my fault, but I just like to rant about stuff. You guys know people have listened to this before.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [35:38] Yeah. You're very angry. Very angry, man.
 
Robbie Wagner: [35:41] We're changing this to Robbie hates that is the name of the podcast.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [35:45] Robbie rawr.
 
Robbie Wagner: [35:48] Anyway, let's not talk about tech anymore, okay?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [35:52] I'm done with tech. Reload prefetch. I still don't know what it is, but whatever.
 
Robbie Wagner: [35:56] Loading it earlier, use one or the other.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [35:59] Yeah, load it some sooner or later anticipate your user's news.
 
Robbie Wagner: [36:03] So what did you stumble upon?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [36:05] Oh, gosh, I don't remember. But I do remember using that site and finding it very enjoyable where you'd, like, look at something and then start stumbling upon other sites that would get tagged similarly. I thought it was cool.
 
Robbie Wagner: [36:20] Yeah. I don't remember. Could you safe search it? I feel like a lot of people got a lot of not-safe-for-work stuff on StumbleUpon.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [36:30] Right. I think you could I think you could kind of put a filter on and whatever else. Yeah, I mean, I remember the days, like, I'm trying to think when I first I got a computer. I didn't get a computer of my own until college. I'm trying to remember which thing came first, my laptop or my Gateway computer in a cow box.
 
Robbie Wagner: [36:52] Oh, Gateway. Do they still exist?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [36:54] I don't think so. And then you're just like, oh, cool, let me look up a website. And then you're like, I want to look up more websites, but I don't know where they're at because Ask Jeeves doesn't know. And things like StumbleUpon kind of coming up and just making it cool where you can just look up things about topics you're interested in or liked this site stumble onto similar ones. Yeah, kind of like Digg was like the early we should make another Stumble Upon. That would be kind of funny. And remember how Digg was basically like an early Reddit?
 
Robbie Wagner: [37:25] Yeah. I've thought about making a new MySpace but I don't know that anyone would use it other than it's for the nostalgia factor. I think that's like the only reason.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [37:37] But, like, OG MySpace style because it turns into some music site or something, right?
 
Robbie Wagner: [37:42] Oh, yeah. It's just for bands now because Justin Timberlake bought it. Yeah, but I think there was a lot of cool stuff there. It's not ADHD enough for kids today, but it was better about you didn't have as much infinite content to scroll. It was like, I got, like, my dashboard. I can respond to my messages. I think it had, like, five things in the feed. I forget post that people had done recently. Because I remember if you just kept reposting, it would move you to the top. So people would do that a lot. And it was just cool because it wasn't as addicting and meant to ruin your life. It was just more fun. And it was also like you could go in and put whatever style you want over everything. Which was cool, I think. Something where people could experiment with web development while also being, like, social and like, whatever. And then you can really show off. Like, similar to, I guess, like, CodePen kind of does that where it's like, here's the thing I made but more showcased as part of a real social platform versus, like, more social geared than tech geared. But, like, some of both.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [38:54] I can see that in a way of like, it was cool in a way where it mish-mashed a bunch of different things together. Right. People could comment on your personal site. You could customize it. So it was almost like the GeoCities thing there where you could do some of your own customizations and add your own stuff, and then you're connected together. You add friends. So there's like a thread of links that you can connect through. I don't know. It would be kind of interesting. I could see where it might appeal to some people. I'm not one of them. But there is kind of like there's not that thing now, right, where you can go and have a personal page.
 
Robbie Wagner: [39:37] Everything is like TikTok or TikTok clones.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [39:41] Yeah. That's just consuming. That's not making.
 
Robbie Wagner: [39:43] Yeah. It's all about how can I have, like, the flashiest video that's, like, really short. Like, everyone wants to scroll infinitely through content like that, and I just don't like that. Back in my day, we had to actually look for stuff on the Internet. You couldn't just scroll every video.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [40:05] Yeah, exactly. I can remember I learned HTML from CNET or something, some site like that, where they had a whole section where it was like, Learn HTML. Cool. I want to learn all these tags.
 
Robbie Wagner: [40:18] Does CNET actually do anything? Like, I thought CNET was the site you go to to download fake stuff and get viruses. Is that not the one I'm thinking of?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [40:26] I don't think so. It's not the one I'm thinking of.
 
Robbie Wagner: [40:29] Also, you'll be happy to know Gateways site is copyright 2015.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [40:35] So they kind of still have a site.
 
Robbie Wagner: [40:38] They have drivers and support and stuff, but they don't have anything about, like, we'll sell you a computer. So I think they exist, like, a little bit for people to have an old computer to fix it.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [40:48] Yeah, they have, like, a brand. Oh, yeah, see that? You could actually download software there, too, for a while.
 
Robbie Wagner: [40:54] Yeah, because I would always look for stuff to download before it was easy to get stuff to download with app stores and whatever. And then it would be like, CNET would be one of the results, and I would be like, this is a virus. And then you would download it and it'd be like, yeah, you're right. I'm a virus.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [41:09] Yeah.
 
Robbie Wagner: [41:09] It was never the file you actually wanted.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [41:12] No, I don't see that. Like, what is it anymore? But it exists, so there's that. I guess it used to do, like, tech articles and all kinds of things. It was just, like, all kinds of things.
 
Robbie Wagner: [41:25] It's a dumping ground for stuff.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [41:27] Dumping ground for tech things. And then it just kept growing and growing. And then now they just have download.com, which feels like not where I'm going to go to get any software whatsoever for my computer.
 
Robbie Wagner: [41:42] My favorite is anytime you go to one of those sites, too, even if the download is legit, there'll be, like 15 ads with download buttons in, like, strategic spots trying to get you to download the wrong thing, which is crazy. Like, my mom would always click the wrong ones, of course, and then be like, I have, like, 15 programs. I don't know what they are. And they keep popping up and, like, my computer is slow. And I'm like, yeah, that's because you downloaded all this stuff.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [42:11] Yeah, you did the bad thing. So your mom is definitely one of those. And that probably falls prey to some of the IRS calling her and telling her that she has a bill to pay and she needs to go and get some gift cards to pay it. Visa gift cards. Not that far.
 
Robbie Wagner: [42:26] No. I've told my parents that if anyone calls you or texts you and wants you to do anything. Don't be like, okay, where are you from? Like, get some information. All right, I'm from the IRS. Okay, cool. Who do you work for? I'm going to look up the real number and call it because then if it's legit, you can find them. So anytime someone is like, I'm Amazon, your delivery is lost. What's your password and maiden name? Or like, that stuff they hopefully ignore. I think the only thing my mom fell for was people don't know that the first three things on Google are always ads, right? So she was having problems with her computer and she searched what that was like, doing the right things, and taught them to search for it and try to figure it out and like, whatever. And it was like something Microsoft. And she went to one of those links thinking it was the actual Microsoft and it wasn't.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [43:22] Right?
 
Robbie Wagner: [43:22] And then it was like, yeah, go on our online chat and pay us $100 and we'll fix your computer. And then it's like, oh, cool, download Team Viewer and give me full access to your computer to control it. And my mom called me, like while the guy is clicking around her computer and goes, hey, I think I might have messed up. Like, I probably shouldn't let this guy control my computer, right? And I was like, no, just turn it off and don't turn it back on for a while.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [43:49] So he gives up and doesn't look for the node to show up.
 
Robbie Wagner: [43:52] Yeah, so that was fun. But usually, they're pretty good. They recognize that most things are a scam and email you get is probably fake. Like, just go to the real website and whatever.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [44:02] Yeah, exactly. Confirm it in the real website. Oh, give me your number, I'll call you back. Perfect. Yeah. Turns out the IRS doesn't have like, a one-call system. Well, that's it. Not exactly how that works. Yeah, interesting. I don't know of my mom ever falling prey to any of those things, but she kind of ignores the world, so never opens an email, doesn't answer my calls. I don't know. It's not just me, I guess.
 
Robbie Wagner: [44:34] Well, that's good.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [44:35] Did you see your mom at the lake?
 
Robbie Wagner: [44:37] I did, yeah. We were down there for about a week, I guess, trying to think where we went. Yeah, it was a week. We went down to see Caitlin's mom. She came up from South Carolina to meet us because she had not met Finn yet.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [44:52] Wow.
 
Robbie Wagner: [44:53] Yeah.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [44:54] Well, there we go. And the a big occasion.

Robbie Wagner: [44:56] Yeah. So they came up for a couple of days and other than that, we went to this restaurant. We really like The Landing because it's fancy for the lake. It's not what I would consider a real fancy restaurant, but it's one of the fanciest places you can go there. Right? So it's like they actually have a real wine list and they have some interesting foods and whatever, and we like because you can boat there. So we always have a date night when we're down there and just leave Finn and the dogs with my parents and go do that. And I would do that every day. Like, it's so good because it's, like, nicer food than you would get usually in the area. And it's, like, free because it's not up here, so it's like, half the price you would pay up here. And I was like, oh, my God, this is so affordable.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [45:42] It's not free necessarily, but quite a bit less expensive.
 
Robbie Wagner: [45:47] We can get a whole bottle of wine and split it. Two appetizers, two entrees, and two desserts. And it's, like $150.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [45:56] Nice.
 
Robbie Wagner: [45:58] $150 is not necessarily a small amount of money for dinner, but for all that, it is.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [46:03] Yeah. How many bottles of wine included? No, buy one, get one free.
 
Robbie Wagner: [46:10] Oh, no. Just one.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [46:12] Fair enough.
 
Robbie Wagner: [46:13] Yeah. So we enjoyed that and went to the Mexican place a couple of times. There's a Mexican restaurant, like, five minutes from our lake house by boat. So we went across there, and they have, of course, there's huge margaritas that are, like, irresponsibly strong. So had a few of those, and.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [46:31] Then they put you back on a boat. That is irresponsible.
 
Robbie Wagner: [46:34] Yeah, well, I mean, boat is safer than a car, right? It kind of floats. You don't have lanes. You can just kind of make it back. It's a little different. I think the police might disagree with my statement, but.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [46:47] The police listen to this podcast and don't announce what lake you are.
 
Robbie Wagner: [46:51] I actually met one of my previous bosses at the Mexican place one time, and he and his friends had each had, like, two or three of those giant margaritas where I have one, and I'm, like, passed out for a couple of hours when I get home. And so they'd all had two or three each, and someone had to drive the boat back. I was like, you guys are dead. Like, you're not making it back. They made it back, but.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [47:13] Right. All three? Yeah, they made it back because there aren't lanes or anything else. Maybe they say, that's funny. Yeah. That is a lot more exciting than my weekend was or week.
 
Robbie Wagner: [47:23] Oh, yeah. What did you do?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [47:25] Mostly just hung out. Like, Saturday was just around the house. I did actually. My son, for the first time, helped me wash the car, and I got one of those foam guns so you can do, like, the scrub less wash with the foam. And that was pretty cool. He was like, jazzed to use the pressure washer and shoot foam all over the place.
 
Robbie Wagner: [47:45] Nice. So you don't have to touch it at all. It's, like, powerful enough to spray stuff off.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [47:50] Yeah. So pressure washer in general is powerful enough to get a lot of whatever off. I had a lot of dust from doing a little off-road a couple of weeks ago and that was due to get that off anyway. So you just kind of spray it overall to get like debris off and then use the foam which then just kind of like works away all the dirt. And then you rinse that so you don't have to get out like a sponge or whatever and just let the foam do the work for you. Spray that off and then dry it. That was fun.
 
Robbie Wagner: [48:20] I'm always scared of using a pressure washer though. Like if you do it too close or too powerful when you like rip your paint off.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [48:27] I don't I think it would be have to be pretty serious.
 
Robbie Wagner: [48:30] So you have to really try.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [48:32] I just have an electric pressure washer so it's like PSI is I think like 1200 max and you can adjust that and whatever and the distance. So yeah, that was fun. Hang out. And then for whatever reason, the next day I decided some more hard work was in my future. The kids have a playhouse and there's a porch in the front and there's a deck up because it has like two levels on the inside and then there's like a little deck that they can go out onto and then slide down. Well, over the last few years that's been breaking down with the weather and all that kind of stuff. So the paint is coming off and some splinters and whereas my brother and I got out there for a few hours and sanded it with like a rotary sander and a regular sander. Not exciting, not fun. So using tools is kind of fun, but a few hours and I was like, why did I decide this?
 
Robbie Wagner: [49:25] Yeah, I think I've just gotten to the point where I have so much stuff to do that everything feels exhausting to where it's like I would use to love stuff like that. Give me a couple of hours to paint something or do whatever, like a little bit. Like I don't want to do that for my livelihood, but I want a little project to work on now. It's just like anything I have to do, I don't want to do it. I just want to skip it all.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [49:50] Nice. I do like some manual labor. It's almost meditative to do some things and just zone out and use your body and not your mind. That was nice. That was a break.
 
Robbie Wagner: [50:00] Mowing is nice. But I hired people to mow because it was taking me like two or 3 hours to mow it all and I don't have time for that.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [50:10] No. The diminishing returns of the value of your time though will say at a certain point it's actually cheaper to hire it out. Yeah.
 
Robbie Wagner: [50:18] They're also going to do all of our landscaping, which I'm excited for.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [50:22] Very cool. Yeah. I got to come and enjoy your land at some point before you decide to move yet again. I think that happens every eight to 18 months.
 
Robbie Wagner: [50:33] I think we're honestly going to be stuck for a little bit. The ideal thing is if real estate prices could stay really high for a little bit and we can sell really high, then we will just figure it out from there. Like, if we have to go live at the lake for a while or whatever, that's fine. But I feel like if we wait to sell for like a year or two, everything will get more reasonably priced and it won't be as fun and you won't make as much money.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [50:59] Yeah.
 
Robbie Wagner: [51:00] So? I don't know. I mean, we're working towards getting things ready. We're going to have our bathrooms renovated pretty soon, like next week, and then we have some patching and painting to do, minor things, but we'll hopefully be ready to list it within the next couple of months, I think. So we'll see.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [51:21] Okay. Yeah, it could be interesting, I guess. Now that's the problem if you're selling now to try and buy right away, then opting into a much higher interest rate and some challenges.
 
Robbie Wagner: [51:32] Well, we're not trying to buy right away. We just want to list soon to see if someone with a giant bag of cash wants to give us a lot of money. If not, we'll chill and wait a little while. But I wouldn't want to miss out on the giant bag of money if it's coming.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [51:48] Yeah, it's hard to say. I keep opening my bank account looking for a giant bag of money and then it doesn't show up. I don't know.
 
Robbie Wagner: [51:57] Yeah, I mean, right now I have some money in mind, but that's just because I haven't paid for my Bronco yet.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [52:03] There you go. There's a lot on topic for the future. Customized Broncos electric cars. What's going on in the future? California has a thing where all cars sold in California by 2035 or something have to be electric. Just interesting.
 
Robbie Wagner: [52:20] I thought it was even earlier. It's like the 2030 thing. Like everybody's doing it's like everything is supposed to be. Maybe it's 2035. I thought California was more aggressive. I thought that was like the US-wide was like 2035.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [52:35] My California friend told me 2030 but I don't know.
 
Robbie Wagner: [52:40] Well, then the US year must just be late enough that everyone's dead from climate change and we don't care that much about it.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [52:48]] Mostly what it is. If we make it another ten, I'll be surprised.
 
Robbie Wagner: [52:51] Yeah. I mean, Putin is going to nuke us all anyway, right?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [52:54] There you go.
 
Robbie Wagner: [52:55] He's going to nuke something in Ukraine and then whatever happens after that will be terrible because it's either we're going to nuke something back or we're going to bitch out and do nothing, which will make us look weak and he'll nuke more stuff. Like someone is going to ultimately nuke a lot of stuff unless we can stop him.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [53:13] So what you're saying is Ship Shape should pivot to fallout shelters. Yeah, they're coming back. There's another shot at this.
 
Robbie Wagner: [53:22] I did see that Elon Musk tweeted, like, contemplating ways to de-escalate this war or something like that. And if anyone could do it, it's him. He probably could just call Putin up and be like, bro, can you stop and be like, you right? Send me a Tesla.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [53:38] Can we get one of those boring machines? Okay. Then we're in.
 
Robbie Wagner: [53:43] That's all he wants?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [53:44] Yeah, why not?
 
Robbie Wagner: [53:45] Yeah.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [53:45] I want to just create a bunch of tunnels, super speed tunnels, so that.
 
Robbie Wagner: [53:50] You can then come up into other countries and exactly. Wage warfare.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [53:54] I want a boring machine so I can get there on land or air. People detect me underneath. Yes.
 
Robbie Wagner: [54:03] Yeah. I just try to pretend like nothing is happening because if I focus on all that stuff, I'm even less likely to get anything done.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [54:12] Yeah. Very American of you, though. Let's just pretend like nothing's happening. What's on Hulu tonight?
 
Robbie Wagner: [54:18] I don't know. We're still finishing American Horror Story. Watch the first half of the previous one. I think the new one actually comes out soon. Like, this week, last week, something that's, like, NYC is the new one, if you haven't seen.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [54:32] Interesting. No, I watched The latest SNL, which had me on Hulu, seeing some of the new content there.
 
Robbie Wagner: [54:38] Yeah, we watched the first one of this season. We haven't watched any of that.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [54:42] Yeah, sorry, that's what I did. I watched the first one. I haven't watched the newest one because I didn't know either. Host well, let's just start here. I know Kendrick Lamar.
 
Robbie Wagner: [54:51] Kung fu Kenny.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [54:52] Kung fu Kenny. Is that Kendrick?
 
Robbie Wagner: [54:54] It's Kendrick Lamar?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [54:56] I don't know. I don't know that. But there you go. Thanks. Today I learned I saw that there's a new Hellraiser movie. They've done, like, a reboot of Hellraiser.
 
Robbie Wagner: [55:06] Hulu has new stuff all the time. And I learned in one of the emails I get was either the Hustle or, like, the Robinhood one, that Hulu will be 100% Disney-owned in 2024. Disney plus is going to go away and be part of Hulu.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [55:22] It would be interesting. I'm not sure why you'd want to do that. They built all this marketing up behind.
 
Robbie Wagner: [55:27] But it's all one platform then.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [55:28] I guess.
 
Robbie Wagner: [55:28] And then you can, like, charge your bundle rates for just the one thing, basically.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [55:36] Yeah, but ESPN Plus is also, like, its own thing. Is that also going to become Hulu?
 
Robbie Wagner: [55:43] Yes, which is dumb because you can't watch ESPN on ESPN Plus, which was weird because Dish dropped ESPN or all Disney content for like, a little while because they always do that. They're like, oh, we don't want to pay you what you want. And then, hey, I'm not going to pay for Dish if you don't have any of the Disney channels because every channel that exists is owned by Disney. So try again. So I bought, like, The Hulu live TV even though we have no Internet and just like suffered through trying to watch football on that. But yeah, you can't watch it on like you buy ESPN Plus. And you can't watch the channel ESPN on ESPN Plus. So you can't watch like college game day and stuff, which is ridiculous anyway.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [56:24] Well, I don't know. These aren't problems I experience. Yeah, I don't have to go to Hulu for any of my content. Sports content. A few things are on ESPN Plus, but not most. Some of them are on Paramount Plus. Like European.
 
Robbie Wagner: [56:39] Really?
 
Chuck Carpenter: [56:40] Tournament stuff, like Champions League Europe a weird spot. Yup. And then Peacock has some matches because they got rid of NBC Sports. And then they basically don't have even though NBC has the Premier League's rights or whatever in the states, they don't put anything on NBC. Almost every once in a while you get it, like over the air, and then otherwise you're on like TBS or something. I don't know. USA Network. Whichever one NBC owns. So I got to like, jump all over the place. I need five different places to watch.
 
Robbie Wagner: [57:12] It's all of those. TBS, TNT, USA, all NBC now. Because when the Olympics are on, the Olympics are on all those channels.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [57:20] It's bullshit. That's what it is.
 
Robbie Wagner: [57:22] Yup. You got like two companies that own everything, universal and Disney.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [57:27] Yeah.
 
Robbie Wagner: [57:28] Fox is like, hey, we're here. We're going to make weird news so that you can think we're relevant.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [57:33] And then AT&T owns HBO, which is not bad. I guess.
 
Robbie Wagner: [57:37] That's true. That's true.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [57:38] Warner Bros and HBO.
 
Robbie Wagner: [57:40] I forget about Warner Brothers and like what Sony is doing and stuff. There's some stuff out there.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [57:45] Yeah. That's under the AT&T umbrella now.
 
Robbie Wagner: [57:48] Yeah.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [57:49] It's a little weird.
 
Robbie Wagner: [57:50] But it's overwhelmingly Disney and Universal, which seems like we should do something about that.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [57:56]We'll see.
 
Robbie Wagner: [57:57] They should just declare them both monopolies, take huge cuts of their money, and give it to us to start a new network. That's what where pivoting to.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [58:06] I have some experience in video.
 
Robbie Wagner: [58:08] Yeah, there we go.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [58:09] And streaming. So there you go. I'm sure I could start a company there.
 
Robbie Wagner: [58:12] We'll just get the newest iPhones because they do like, Dolby 3D or whatever. And we're good.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [58:18] Oh, perfect. We should buy some of those before the end of the year just because.
 
Robbie Wagner: [58:23] Yeah. All right. We're a time here. Sorry for the rant there. If you liked it, please subscribe. Remember to check out bitsky.com/shipshapecode, and if you want to hire us for some things, Ship Shape, we will catch you next time. Leave us some good ratings and reviews, if you please. Thanks.
 
Chuck Carpenter: [58:46] Thanks for listening to Whiskey Web and Whatnot. This podcast is brought to you by Ship Shape and produced by Podcast Royale. If you liked this episode, consider sharing it with a friend or two and leave us a rating, maybe a review, as long as it's good.
 
Robbie Wagner: [59:01] You can subscribe to future episodes on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more info about Ship Shape and this show, check out our website at shipshape.io.