June 2, 2022

Mystery Maker's Monday, Testing, and GraphQL

They say if it’s not broken, don’t fix it. So why are we running tests on tests on tests that aren’t business-critical? There’s an art to testing beyond just striving to get 100% coverage. In fact, over-testing can actually hamper your progress more than help it. Meanwhile, Chuck’s wondering why it’s not possible to have a union of enums in GraphQL.

In this episode, Chuck and Robbie discuss some tech frustrations, lessons for the React community, why Ship Shape implemented spam traps, and a whatnot on all things alcohol, sports, Friends, and Robbie’s (seemingly endless) truck saga. 


Key Takeaways

  • [01:50] - A lengthy whiskey review. 
  • [22:53] - Why getting carried away with tests becomes your downfall. 
  • [34:50] - Why Chuck thinks these tests in the React community are useless. 
  • [38:16] - Chuck’s GraphQL confusion. 
  • [40:49] - A browser bug Chuck noticed. 
  • [44:09] - Robbie’s non-sponsored plug.
  • [44:50] - A sports-themed whatnot and an update on Robbie’s truck saga. 



[26:52] - “There are things that warrant tests and things that don’t and there are good best practices for writing them.” ~ @rwwagner90

[33:44] - “Sometimes people will just chase the goal of as close to 100% coverage as possible and then you end up with a bunch of egregious tests along the way.” ~ @CharlesWthe3rd

[34:00] - “You need to test what’s business-critical. You can do the other tests if you have the time. But there were a lot of tests that really didn’t even check anything. And it’s kind of arbitrary — you got that coverage, but you weren’t doing anything.” ~ @rwwagner90

[36:32] - “Cypress is a great example of having integration testing in context where you can get visual progression testing too so [you] have some understanding there.” ~ @CharlesWthe3rd




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Robbie Wagner: [00:09] Welcome, everyone to Mystery Maker's Monday. A special edition of Whiskey Web and Whatnot with myself, Robbie Wagner, and my cohost, as always, Charles William Carpenter. What's going on, Chuck?
Chuck Carpenter: [00:26] Oh, you know, an exciting day of having too much whiskey midday and responsibilities after. But, I mean, hey, we rolled the dice.
Robbie Wagner: [00:35] Well, hey, we're 30 minutes later than usual, so what do you want from me?
Chuck Carpenter: [00:39] Yeah, I really pushed it. It's like splitting the difference on what daylight savings time has done to me. We were 2 hours different, and now we're three. And it's because Arizona doesn't do that. We don't buy into that garbage.
Robbie Wagner: [00:52] Yeah, you guys have it right, though. I know we should not switch time. I don't care whether we do daylight time or standard time, but we shouldn't switch because it's crazy.
Chuck Carpenter: [01:04] Yeah. Old laws brought in to create more daylight efficiency for farmers, as we, so many people in America, are still farming. It seems useful to keep that around. But stepping back from any laws is pretty difficult here. So we'll see that big proposal that next year, maybe they will stop. I don't know. I think it went through the House and would have to go through Senate and presidential ratification. But we're not here for politics, so we're here for whiskey.
Robbie Wagner: [01:39] Yeah.
Chuck Carpenter: [01:39] It's the important part. We're here for the whiskey. I'll be doing the rest of this podcast in my Irish accent.
Robbie Wagner: [01:48] It's pretty good. So we have three Maker's, different types of Maker's here. One is the Maker's 46, which is 94 proof and has French oak staves. So just a little bit different. It's basically normal Maker's with French oak staves added.
Chuck Carpenter: [02:07] Yeah, they do, like, I think it's like, six weeks or something like that. They add the staves and then let it age for a certain extra period of time to get that flavor.
Robbie Wagner: [02:15] Okay.
Chuck Carpenter: [02:16] Yeah.
Robbie Wagner: [02:16] So we have that we have cask strength, which I guess is also normal Maker's, but jest. Not watered down.
Chuck Carpenter: [02:23] Yes, not proof down. So Maker's is 90 proof. This one is essentially whatever it is in the barrel. They typically age, like, seven years, so it would be fairly consistent from each bottle, but small variations anyway. You get that. Yeah.
Robbie Wagner: [02:42] And then we have two different private selection ones, unfortunately. Well, I guess it would be like that anyway because it'd be smaller batch, so they wouldn't have a bunch of the same things across the country. So mine is the Virginia ABC one, and it is three Baked American Pure Staves, four Seared French Cuvee Staves. Two Maker's 46 ones, zero French Mdn Dion, I don't know what all this French stuff is. And one Toasted French Spice. And Chuck's is way different. So it has zero Baked American, but we both have four of the French Cuvee, I guess you have three Maker's, 46 and three French mind, and zero French spice.
Chuck Carpenter: [03:34] Yeah. No toasted. French spice. What is with the Bourbons and French twists? I was watching some of the Derby yesterday, mostly like leading up to didn't actually watch the Derby race, but there was a big segment because Woodford Reserve is a big sponsor of the race and they were showing some bougie mint julep that they were doing and they were like all these French elements in it, like French orange liqueur and French mint from Versailles. And first of all, the guy said Versailles completely wrong, so I don't even know if he's from Kentucky. But everything else was just like, what mint julep? Oh, by the way, it was a $2,500 mint julep. I guess it was like a charity thing, but you had to be like in a special lounge. You pay $2,500 for one drink and you got a sterling silver straw as part of it.
Robbie Wagner: [04:30] I think I'd want more than the straw. Give me some glassware, maybe a decanter, I don't know, more things.
Chuck Carpenter: [04:38] Crystal decanter. Yeah, I don't know. That was interesting. So yes, many more French elements here. As the French say, down the hatch.
Robbie Wagner: [04:48] Yeah.
Chuck Carpenter: [04:48] So I'm going to do it for the first one. Let's get to the first 46.
Robbie Wagner: [04:51] I've mixed all mine up so I don't know what I'm having, and I'm going to try to guess. Are you doing the same or do you know what yours are in order?
Chuck Carpenter: [04:58] Mhm.
Robbie Wagner: [04:58] Okay. All right, well, I'm going to just go down the line then and see if I can tell.
Chuck Carpenter: [05:03] Okay. Yeah. I took this as the Pepsi Challenge, but I didn't know it was a blind Pepsi Challenge. In this way, I could have it in the appropriate order. So you're supposed to go you do tastings and you go from lowest to highest proof. That way you don't like, burn your taste buds off. And then the low proof is like water.
Robbie Wagner: [05:18] I'll have one sip of each. Try to guess and then I'll order them in your order and we'll talk about them more.
Chuck Carpenter: [05:24] Okay, this sounds reasonable. Okay, that'd be the strong one.
Robbie Wagner: [05:31] Yeah, I'm going to say the first one was the 46. That's the lowest proof, right?
Chuck Carpenter: [05:37] Yeah, definitely.
Robbie Wagner: [05:39] All right, first one is 46. Now let me try these other two again.
Chuck Carpenter: [05:45] Colder thing going on there. Yeah. Maker's Cask Strength has a little cola to me. 46 has a little brown sugary, but it doesn't have a very long finish.
Robbie Wagner: [06:00] That's tough. Alright, so I have a guess. We'll see if I got them right. Okay, so I think the first one was 46.
Chuck Carpenter: [06:06] It is.
Robbie Wagner: [06:07] I think the next one is the cocktail finish.
Chuck Carpenter: [06:11] It is.
Robbie Wagner: [06:12] And then we got cast strength. Hey, my palette isn't the worst ever.
Chuck Carpenter: [06:17] No, you thought it was. You've been talking yourself down under selling reality. So I've had two thus far, and I only have two glasses in my fish bowl in the office currently.
Robbie Wagner: [06:32] So you started with 46. Right?
Chuck Carpenter: [06:34] Started with 46, and it was. What do you think about it? Yeah, let's do our tasting notes. Yes. I get a lot of brown sugar on the nose and drinking it, it's pretty mild. Being the lower proof. Yeah. I would say a little bit of, like, citrus, too. You get some brown sugar and then some citrus in the finish, and then it fades fast. For me.
Robbie Wagner: [06:55] Yeah, I've got a little bit of leather, but to me, it tastes kind of just run-of-the-mill bourbon. But, like, you're drinking that in, like, a lumber factory. I've got enough wood in it that's a little different that I don't taste it a ton, but something on my palate gets some of that. So it's almost like you're just smelling more wood or something interesting.
Chuck Carpenter: [07:20] Okay. You're drinking this in a lumber yard, which just be finished with the saws before you decide to do that.
Robbie Wagner:[07:29] Yes.
Chuck Carpenter: [07:30] Kids, don't try that at home.
Robbie Wagner: [07:32] That would not go well.
Chuck Carpenter: [07:33] Yeah, don't try this at home, kids.
Robbie Wagner: [07:35] All right, what did you have next?
Chuck Carpenter: [07:36] Well, I have the capital.
Robbie Wagner: [07:38] Do we want to give these numbers? Are the numbers for them relative to the others, or do we want to do them just one at a time?
Chuck Carpenter: [07:45] That sounds like a fun system. Something different. Yeah, because I would say compared to each other yeah, let's do that. So right now, because the 46 is not bad, but it's not, like, interesting comparatively in this mix, because I think in terms of, like, some, I'm just going to go with five. I'm going to say it's not bad. I don't really want it under halfway, but it's, like, probably not going to do that.
Robbie Wagner: [08:11] Well, I would say maybe a four. Actually, I could round up maybe to five because it's, like, a little bit more interesting than standard bourbon, but it's not very interesting.
Chuck Carpenter: [08:21] Yeah.
Robbie Wagner: [08:22] So I'll just say four just to be different.
Chuck Carpenter: [08:24] I was tempted to go four, and then I was like, there's a negative connotation there, but maybe not maybe under five doesn't necessarily mean bad. This isn't like, rank your feelings one to ten or one to eight.
Robbie Wagner: [08:35] This is just give it a scale.
Chuck Carpenter: [08:38] So yeah, you know what? I'm going to go three.
Robbie Wagner: [08:43] Yeah. I think unless I go one or two, you could still safely go buy it and not hate your life.
Chuck Carpenter: [08:51] Yeah, this is fine.
Robbie Wagner: [08:52] All right, so what did you have next?
Chuck Carpenter: [08:54] I'm going to have the regular cask strength next.
Robbie Wagner: [08:58] Okay.
Chuck Carpenter: [08:59] So getting myself geared up for the private selection. As a Maker's Mark ambassador, I should be giving them good scores, but, you know, in the tour.
Robbie Wagner: [09:11] Yeah. You might lose your title.
Chuck Carpenter: [09:13] I know. I signed up on an iPad when I went on a tour, actually. It's cool, though. They send you a Christmas gift every year, and it's random stuff, like, could be a deck of cards. It's been, like, socks one time. It's always, like, interesting stuff. I want to preserve that so as part of it. And then when you sign up the next barreling, they create a bunch of plaques and they will put your name on a barrel with probably like ten other people or something. And then in seven years you can come and purchase a bottle from your barrel. Just kind of cool. But mine came up during the pandemic and I think they were like try to hold on to barrels for a little bit to give you a chance, but eventually, they just had to like you got to sell it. Sorry. Yeah.
Robbie Wagner: [10:09] You would think they could just make one bottle for you and hold on to it, but the logistics might get tough with that.
Chuck Carpenter: [10:14] Yeah, logistics are kind of tough. So they were like at a certain point they were like, you can still do it. We're not doing tours, but you can do this if you want to let us know and you can get your bottle. But Loretta, Kentucky is not that convenient. So it's just like, yeah, I'm going to let this one go. So they didn't say, you're shit out of luck. They were just saying there's very specific parameters here to get it and it didn't feel that serious to me.
Robbie Wagner: [10:39] Yeah. Well, now we're getting an entire barrel pick of our own.
Chuck Carpenter: [10:44] That's true. Not of Maker's though, so there's that. Tell the folks at home when they can win.
Robbie Wagner: [10:51] Yeah. So we haven't figured out how you can win yet, but we want to have I think we mentioned a few times maybe like 50 or 100 NFTs that are kind of I envision them as a yearly thing. So you have a different one each year. That's a pass to that year's picks, whether we do one or two or probably wouldn't do more than two a year. Right. And then you just get access to those picks. We'll get you a bottle of it for quote-unquote, free. You have to pay something for the NFT probably to be part of the club. But we're not in the business of selling alcohol, so we haven't figured out those logistics. But keep your eyes peeled for that is coming soon.
Chuck Carpenter: [00:11:30] Soon is a very loose construct.
Robbie Wagner: [11:33] No, actually very soon. The whiskey will be to us soon sometime. So we just have to figure out an NFT, which you just press a button to have an NFT. Right?
Chuck Carpenter: [11:44] That's true. 1787 logo. Maybe we just do that.
Robbie Wagner: [11:47] Well, we have the barrel pick-like logo. I would use that.
Chuck Carpenter: [11:51] Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And then we can yeah, that makes sense. Just got to get the tech behind the smart contract, which I have this tutorial open in a tab in the Brave browser for like three weeks now. So it's going well. That's the part that I was more yeah.
Robbie Wagner: [12:09] Something else that I want to build. We're getting a little bit into tech before we're done whiskey here, but I want to build a thing where we can put in all of our ratings from these podcasts and then have like a breakdown of the top-rated ones and different things we said about them and stuff so people can peruse that and see like, oh, I need a whiskey to pick. Like, let's see what they like and pick one.
Chuck Carpenter: [12:32] I can't imagine there's high demand for that app.
Robbie Wagner: [12:35] Well, I mean, I would just bolt it on as like a tab on our podcast page.
Chuck Carpenter: [12:40] Yeah.
Robbie Wagner: [12:40] It's not like people are going to download us as a whiskey experts app, but someone might care.
Chuck Carpenter: [12:46] I mean, isn't there already like a site where there's like tapped for beer and you can say once you've had and rate them and all that kind of stuff? If there's one for spirits or whiskey specifically, we could just have a Whiskey Web and Whatnot account then.
Robbie Wagner: [13:05] True. Yeah, that's probably smarter than doing it ourselves, but TBD.
Chuck Carpenter: [13:11] Yeah, one of those things. I don't know. That's what happens when you bring up product ideas liveish. Okay, so let's go back to the whiskey. The cask strength, Maker's.
Robbie Wagner: [13:24] Cask strength is definitely still just normal bourbony in my opinion. It's not necessarily less wood, but different wood. But the thing that makes it much nicer is the actual proof. I really like when it's a little more proof.
Chuck Carpenter: [13:42] Yeah, I want to feel it a little bit and I don't want it crazy, but I do want to feel it. So I usually want 100 or more. Yeah. I would say that Maker's is on my list of approachable bourbons for people who are kind of new to whiskey or maybe just new to bourbon in general. They're like I'm not really sure what would you try and you get Buffalo Trace is very approachable. I think Maker's Mark is pretty approachable and available a lot of places. So that's kind of nice. You get some consistency there, but yeah, you're not like, whoa, blown away.
Robbie Wagner: [14:19] I would agree that it's definitely like most people that probably don't have whiskey every day would like this. There's nothing off-putting about either of these first two that anyone would say this is way too spicy or way too anything. It's just kind of smooth, normal, middle-of-the-road flavor.
Chuck Carpenter: [14:38] Yeah, it's wheated. So there's that. You're going to get some more sweetness out of that versus just your regular, which I think allows it to be less expensive ingredient-wise. Like you don't really need to overage things or whatever else you get. Seven years is good for them too, because it's like these we did ones that are younger, like four years or something. You're not getting enough wood and it's not really well balanced. So this and then you get a little punch to it at the end. So given that compared to the 46 middle of the road, it's a five middle of the road right in the middle.
Robbie Wagner: [15:16] Yeah, I think so.
Chuck Carpenter: [15:17] You want to blow your hair back a little bit more. You get the 46 in a cask strength, so then you get a little mix of those two things. I think that's like a jam. It used to only be available for.
Robbie Wagner: [15:31] The next one we're going to try.
Chuck Carpenter: [15:33] Yeah, we'll find out.
Robbie Wagner: [15:33] We will find out.
Chuck Carpenter: [15:35] The funny thing is that you used to only be able to get 46 cash drinks at the distillery. And then, of course, it was closed for a couple of years for tours, and so they started releasing it out in the wild. And it's done really well.
Robbie Wagner: [15:48] Yeah. I want to say we had some of that at Jack Rose when we were there, and you were like, you can only get this at the like, you said the same thing, and I was like, okay.
Chuck Carpenter: [15:58] Yeah. I mean, we are in a place like the Jack Rose. That is a library of whiskey options both old and new. You want to pick something very different that you probably won't get at any other bar. It's kind of how I think about it.
Robbie Wagner: [16:12] Yeah, absolutely.
Chuck Carpenter: [16:13] Something from 1990, like when you were bornish.
Robbie Wagner: [16:20] Yeah. All right, let's do the next one. Moving on, I'm not getting much on the nose of any of these.
Chuck Carpenter: [16:29] Yeah.
Robbie Wagner: [16:29] This one smells a little bit floraly. Like, I would put this in an air freshener and not be displeased with the smell.
Chuck Carpenter: [16:37] Right. You just stick some diffusers in your whiskey glass, see what happens. That would be interesting. We should try that for the office.
Robbie Wagner: [16:45] And you can start fires with those later.
Chuck Carpenter: [16:47] Yeah, perfect. It's a win-win. I'm trying to get a little more from smells. I don't know. Yeah, I'm not catching much flowery.
Robbie Wagner: [16:57] Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of odd, but a little bit of lavender or something. It's subtle, but there's definitely a floral component there.
Chuck Carpenter: [17:07] I think you may have influenced my brain, finally, because I'm catching a little bit on the outs of it again. I'll get more of a like I want to say, instead of brown sugar or whatever, but more of a molasses, like a deep sugar in there. Like a little bit of leathery now. And yeah, I think I did catch a slight floral note, but ours are different, so I feel like you shouldn't be influencing me that way.
Robbie Wagner: [17:39] Well, some is the same. Maybe the Cuvee is lavendery because we have the same it's all Cu- none of that.
Chuck Carpenter: [17:45] Cuvee. Cuvee. Just making that up. I have no idea if that's how they say it.
Robbie Wagner: [17:50] Well, I know that it's an 'A' at the end because it has the accent aigu over the 'E'.
Chuck Carpenter: [17:55] Versus an accent grave.
Chuck Carpenter: [17:57] Yeah, I know I took French. I remember how to fake it.
Robbie Wagner: [18:03] I think you mentioned that, but I forgot that you had taken French.
Chuck Carpenter: [18:06] Yeah, well, embarrassingly enough, I took French from fourth grade and then into my junior year of high school or sophomore. I can't remember like, a couple of years in high school and then another year in college. And I recognize some, so I can process and understand some of it. But as far as knowing how to speak, when we were in France some years ago, I was really making it up, trying to get help, and I don't know, maybe that helped my experience. It's a common feeling that the French don't like Americans and they're mean to you when you're traveling there, and we just didn't experience that at all. Lots of people were very helpful and nice. I don't know. We loved it. We did one night in Paris, which is also the name of my second studio album. And then we were like, oh, wow, we just did this because we were flying out of there and we all will take one day and kind of do the sites but like get out because it's not great. And it was great. We wanted to go back for a while, which is why we'll be doing that next year for my wife's 40th.
Chuck Carpenter: [19:10] Nice. Yeah.
Robbie Wagner: [19:11] I imagine it really depends on exactly where you are and the people that are also at that place because there's probably places that are, like, very local feel they get pissed off if people come in and they don't know French and they don't know what's going on and that kind of stuff.
Chuck Carpenter: [19:27] Part of it to me is behaving more like a traveler than a tourist. A tourist comes and they expect to be catered to, and they just kind of want people to deal with them because I'm bringing money into your economy and that kind of thing. And a traveler wants to experience culture and is willing to kind of like assimilate to a degree or at least try.
Robbie Wagner: [19:51] Fair enough. What do we want to rate this last one here?
Chuck Carpenter: [19:54] I mean, this one blows away the other two. For me, this is like, miles better and not even that much more expensive, from what I recall. I feel like it was like $65, maybe $70 max.
Robbie Wagner: [20:06] I think these were around I would give this maybe a seven. And I think these are around ten times their rating in price.
Chuck Carpenter: [20:15] Seriously? Yeah.
Robbie Wagner: [20:16] Like four, five, seven.
Chuck Carpenter: [20:19] Yeah, because the Maker's 46, I think, is about $40 for the bottle. Your normal Maker's is usually somewhere around 30. Your Maker's cask strength jumps up to, like, $50. And then yeah, let's say this is around 70. Also, it's really funny that you say seven and what it triggers in me immediately. So this past weekend we went to the Friends Experience, which apparently there's a few locations throughout the United States, including Washington, DC. And that's a funny friend's reference. Seven. Seven, seven. And you have to watch no, I'm not going to tell you what it means. You're going to have to go watch it. Monica. Seven.
Robbie Wagner: [21:02] I've seen all the episodes, Caitlin and I just watched them all from the first one to the last one over the course of the last year.
Chuck Carpenter: [21:09] Wow. Then you get it. You should get it.
Robbie Wagner: [21:13] I mean, I know they play crap and keep rolling seven, but I don't know if that's it. There's probably a reference adjacent to that, but yeah, I'm not remembering what that is.
Chuck Carpenter: [21:24] There it is. Yeah. You should see if you still have it. Like, ours actually just wrapped up this yesterday was the last day and yeah, I thought it was fun. They have a bunch of real set stuff and props and a bunch of backstory and all that kind of stuff, and then you do some trivia around it. It was kind of funny.
Robbie Wagner: [21:46] Yeah. Definitely a good show.
Chuck Carpenter: [21:48] It's one you can circle back to from time to time, and it's easily quotable as well. Yeah, it's the late 90s version of Seinfeld.
Robbie Wagner: [21:59] Yes. I'm upset that there's not more Seinfeld. It was like, such a short run. I need more Seinfeld.
Chuck Carpenter: [22:07] Ten years is a short run for you.
Robbie Wagner: [22:09] It was ten years?
Chuck Carpenter: [22:10] Ten years.
Robbie Wagner: [22:11] I thought it was like six or something.
Chuck Carpenter: [22:13] Ten years. Plus, if you watch Curb Your Enthusiasm, especially the first few seasons, it feels very Seinfeld with. Like you don't have the network television constraints.
Robbie Wagner:[22:24] Well, yeah. I mean, Larry David is Seinfeld. Everything he does has that ring. But I actually like Jerry a lot. I feel like without him, it's not as fun.
Chuck Carpenter: [22:37] Yeah. I mean, his delivery is a good part of it. And then the difference is, like, Larry David has the ideas and humor, but you kind of dislike him and you want him to lose. And Jerry, you want him to win. I think that's the big difference.
Robbie Wagner: [22:51] Yeah, it's a good way to put it.
Chuck Carpenter: [22:53] Should we talk about any technology whatsoever? Especially as the more that I have these.
Robbie Wagner: [22:57] Oh, shit. Yeah. We're supposed to do tech in this, aren't we?
Chuck Carpenter: [23:01] Yeah. Our many many tech fans who come to us for the latest and greatest and you know how to.
Robbie Wagner: [23:11] Our sage knowledge.
Chuck Carpenter: [23:12] Yeah, our sage-like knowledge. Yeah. I mean, it's the bread and butter of this show, I would say. So let's not skip that. Let's just talk about, hey, what's going on in your world?
Robbie Wagner: [23:21] There's probably a lot of people, honestly, that don't care about the whiskey. So we just spent, like, 20 minutes on whiskey. And if that's you, next time, we'll just start telling you, just skip ten minutes ahead, whatever.
Chuck Carpenter: [23:33] Jump ahead for some very interesting information.
Robbie Wagner: [23:37] Yeah. So what's been happening with me every day or every week, we have a Ship Shape. Everyone gets together and codes stuff and just hangs out. And for the past, I don't know, few months, I feel like every time Jared and I would get on, we would be like, yeah, we're working on refactoring these tests. It was the same thing all the time. We're doing this forever and ever ever, ever.
Chuck Carpenter: [24:02] It was so boring to hear about. I can't imagine how boring it was to do. We appreciate and understand the importance of getting a massive test suite, like moving that forward, and not just like, oh, delete these. Forget it.
Robbie Wagner: [24:19] Yeah. I mean, I never thought that I would have this problem.
Chuck Carpenter: [24:23] Right.
Robbie Wagner: [24:23] Usually you get to a project and they're like, okay, we want you to refactor these 20 components and build this feature and do whatever, and you're like, oh, okay, I could do that. How many tests do you have? Do you have good coverage around that? We have no tests. Zero. Not a single one. Okay, well, then you write a few, but they don't capture all of the subtleties of the five-year-old app, and you break a ton of stuff when you build your stuff. So this was the opposite of that. I don't know how many test files, but I believe it was something like 7000 total test cases. Not assertions, but a test block. Like 7000 of those.
Chuck Carpenter: [25:08] Right. Like a describe block, maybe.
Robbie Wagner: [25:10] Yeah, describe, like from Mocha or I guess does Jest do that, too? I haven't done a ton of Jest.
Chuck Carpenter: [25:16] Yeah, I can. It does. I think with Jest, you can anyway, we don't have to get down that rabbit hole. Yes, you can do that with just I think you'd see that often.
Robbie Wagner: [25:26] Yeah. So we had, like, 7000 of those, and if you change basically anything because a lot of them were relying on kind of just weird timing stuff. So Ember, when you go from one version to another, has a big problem of, like, they realized something was relying on weird timing and the run loop and stuff in the previous versions, and they fix it. But then if your tests were relying on that sequence of events, all of your tests start to fail. So we had tons and tons of failures, tons and tons of stuff that was just hanging. It just wouldn't run at all, which was interesting, which is a whole nother thing. I don't know how deep in the weeds are going to go about this specific case, or if we want to just kind of talk about it in general.
Chuck Carpenter: [26:17] Well, was this a major upgrade to four?
Robbie Wagner: [26:21] It was from two X. I don't know which two version to three X. Okay, so it was a major version, which you would expect some failures and things, but there was just a lot of weirdness. And I think the one thing that everyone thinks is, oh, well, you had that many tests, you probably have great coverage, and nothing will break if you're sure all of those pass, not the case. We would merge things and stuff would break. And I think the thing here is there are things that warrant tests and things that don't. And there are good best practices for writing them and some of the problems are if you have say 20 test cases in one file and you're testing a component. And that component, let's say, renders. Then you need to click two things. Wait a little bit. Fill in an input. Click a thing. Wait for. I guess. Mocked API call because you're in a test. And then click done or something. So a few different actions, a lot of the tests would duplicate all of that stuff and check the same things. And I'm like, well, you don't need to check all of that a second time if you're doing all of that. And instead of clicking done at the end, you want to click cancel or something. You could just. Well, that's not a good example. I'm trying to think of a good example here. You want to check two values, right? So you write a test that does all this stuff, hits done, and checks, oh, this says, thanks, you're done. Then you write the test, does all that stuff again, and then goes, okay. Under. Thanks. You're done. There's a subheading that's like, go here to go home, and I want to check that. So it's like duplicate lots of stuff just to get to those values.
Chuck Carpenter: [28:05] Yeah. Where you can have multiple assertions in the same outcome. Yeah. So it was very inefficient. It's interesting. So I'm going to bring up the subtext here, which is the fact that we came on board in order to provide this confidence for the upgrade release. But we didn't do the upgrade, right?
Robbie Wagner: [28:29] No, we did.
Chuck Carpenter: [28:30] Oh, we did do the upgrade. Okay.
Robbie Wagner: [28:31] So I'm not going to go into details. And the people that know, if they listen to this, they know who they are. But yeah, another firm basically did an update to Ember 3.28, and just the way you update Ember is you're supposed to go through and fix deprecations every few versions, turn on the Lint rules, make everything using Best Practices, all that stuff. So they just did none of that. They disabled everything, turned it to the new version, and just said it's, done it, and then they actually just took the person off the project before it was done and left it in a just huge mess. So then we came in and initially we were charged with just fixing that, right? So we looked at it, and then it was pretty much impossible to get all the tests to pass. They had a lot of tests they just set to skip, and we were hitting a lot of those hanging issues and weird stuff, and we were like, well, this is like building a house, right? If you come into an old house and the foundation is crumbling, you don't go, okay, let's just build a new house on this foundation, right? You go, all right, we got to fix it, tear it all the way down, start from scratch, build it right, do it right, and then build from there. So that's what we did. So we spent a ton of time, and we did use some of the stuff. They did some of the test conversions. We were able to copy over. They did some good work that we could use. So we didn't start 100% from scratch, but we basically had to convert most of those tests.
Chuck Carpenter: [30:04] And I don't want to project a blame. No. Okay. Because we don't know the relationship. We don't know what was communicated. We don't know what the definition of done was at a particular time. And they might have just in budgets and whatever else. Right. They got to that point. We don't know why. The point being is that essentially they paid for a branch that never got released into an environment right? Because it couldn't really be done. Realize their follies, decide to ride the ship. Boom, there you go. And then kind of reassess. Yeah. It's an interesting circumstance, and I feel like it's often the one that we end up getting involved in for whatever variation of reasons. I don't hate it. No. I think it has worked out for us in terms of a business use case. And so it's an interesting thing, less about tech and more about the business of consulting and sort of how that works for us. I don't think there's anything wrong with illuminating that as some of our expertise. Right. Yeah. We come in, we know the thing that you're working on. This is kind of where you've ended up. You haven't been able to address your goals or release your code. Hey, let's fix that and then make sure your team can continue to do so later on, without sounding too much like an advertisement.
Robbie Wagner: [31:28] Visit us. Ship Shape io.
Chuck Carpenter: [31:30] Exactly. Come to Ship Shape iO and fill out the form. Not with spam, because we're protecting against that.
Robbie Wagner: [31:37] Yeah, we are. Now, we mentioned that in a previous I think we did.
Chuck Carpenter: [31:42] Well, I think you mentioned something about it, like, not working. Right.
Robbie Wagner: [31:45] I don't know if we went into details, but a synopsis of what it was. We got, I think, 500 submissions, like, overnight. One night, they were all spam. And you can't say, select all of these in slack and delete them. You have to go, delete, delete. And I said, all right. No more. We're putting in the reCAPTCHA and the stuff that stopped the spam.
Chuck Carpenter: [32:04] Right. To prove you're a human.
Robbie Wagner: [32:07] But anyway so I think getting away from the specific case here, the things that are kind of drawbacks of having tons and tons of tests in general in any framework, are the one that we touched on, where if you have that many, you may have a lot of duplication. You might want to look and see, are we doing a lot of the same setup? And then kind of checking the same values and could we throw some of those assertions into one? But then you also have a really slow feedback loop. If you're running 7000 tests in CI, you have all these PRs running, and it takes forever, even if you didn't have that many tests. And then, oh, you had, like, one failure and you try to fix it, and then you wait another 30 minutes or whatever.
Chuck Carpenter: [32:52] It sounds like a metrics game to me. A little bit, though. No, I think this okay. You have a huge, complicated application, so you chase coverage metrics as your success measure. And that can kind of be a misnomer because what's important in this is that your unit testing business-critical functions, and you should be testing integration testing, or like, functional testing business critical flows. So it's like, log into my app because I can't do anything, okay, that's business critical. Check out to buy something business-critical. Oh, and this thing, this particular function calculates tax in your country. Okay. Business critical unit test, that kind of stuff is just like sensible, logic-based choices. And sometimes people will just chase the goal of as close to 100% coverage as possible. Right. And then you end up with a bunch of egregious tests along the way.
Robbie Wagner: [33:54] Yeah, there's definitely a fine line. I think you hit it on the head there of you need to test what's business-critical. Pretty much only you can do the other tests if you have the time, especially unit tests. Those are good to do a quick check of my component, does the things I want. But there were a lot of tests that really didn't even check anything. And that's kind of an arbitrary you get that coverage, but you weren't doing anything. For example, you could render a ton of stuff right, and then say, all right, I'm going to just check. If I click this button, it calls this action. Yeah, you did all this setup to check that. You shouldn't even need to check that because the button has the action on it. I know if I click it, it calls it. What you really want to check is what that action creates. If I click this and it shows a thing, I want to check that. I don't care if it calls the thing, it should show the thing, like the thing the user sees.
Chuck Carpenter: [34:49] Yeah. And those are basically like a lead or an architect within your team kind of gut checks, that kind of stuff. Like, oh, what are the solutions you're choosing here? And sometimes you go down a path. Let me help guide you on what is useful. And then we spend our time there moving forward. And that's why things like velocity change when teams change, right? Like, oh, I have four people here. We are doing really awesome. One person quit. We replaced them. Velocity changes because the humans have changed. And so a good example for the React community that I think is egregious in that same way is where they'll use Jest to shallow render a thing. So basically I want to render my component and then I want to kind of do some functional tests on the real thing but it's not within the context of the whole app so like who really cares? I think those are useless tests if anybody thinks I'm wrong. Happy to have this discussion. Come on the show, get some free whiskey.
Robbie Wagner: [35:50] Yes, I was going to say not only that, but you can't make it actually render so if you want to debug it you're in console log hell or some weird like maybe people that know more than I do can set up some kind of node debugger that will actually stop somewhere and check a thing. But I've never found a good way to like say oh, I'm expecting it to be three but it's 47 and I don't know why. So I'm just going to have to console log in a bunch of spots until I figure it out. Whereas in Ember you can actually say run a test server and you can debug it or not even Ember. I say too much about Ember. I know, but you could do Cypress.
Chuck Carpenter: [36:29] This isn't the Ember show like Cypress. Yes, Cypress is a great example of having integration testing in context where you can get visual regression testing too. So have some understanding there.
Robbie Wagner: [36:43] And they added unit test support so you don't need Jest get rid of Jest and use all Cypress.
Chuck Carpenter: [36:51] I agree with that because Jest is supported by one guy at Facebook and that's kind of it. Facebook as an organization doesn't care and it's pervasive because it was like out there and what a Create React app gives you. So I think that's not a great situation either.
Robbie Wagner: [37:10] No, but you got Vitest or Vitest.
Chuck Carpenter: [37:14] Vitest. No. What are you talking about?
Robbie Wagner: [37:18] It's Vite definitively have checked it does say pronunciation is Vite. Okay, I forget what language but it's the French word for fast.
Chuck Carpenter: [37:26] Okay, it's the French word for fast. So that just keeps coming back. All right, who's ready to pivot? Pivot? I have an awesome.
Robbie Wagner: [37:38] Not tech you mean?
Chuck Carpenter: [37:38] Yeah, no, maybe more tech, maybe not tech, I have no idea. But the not tech correlation here is that I was at the Friend's Experience and one of the sets is the couch pivot set and so I have an awesome.
Robbie Wagner: [37:55] Can you see how big the couch was or?
Chuck Carpenter: [37:56] It was pretty big but also so was the hallway. So it was just like shooting magic so they didn't feel like overly constrained. So I have a very funny picture of me screaming pivot and Sarah's laughing and we're pseudo-lifting a couch. Not really. They have it set up.
Robbie Wagner: [38:14] Nice.
Chuck Carpenter: [38:15] Yeah. I'm only going to say one tech thing since we went so long on your tech thing is why can't in GraphQL I have a union of two enums? It might be this one, it might be that one. They're just string enums. I need to unify these now I have to make a new one, or I've got to wrap them in types to do the union thing. Well, that seems stupid because the access pattern sucks.
Robbie Wagner: [38:40] So I think not being super educated in it myself, I would say the reason is because it's a slippery slope. Because how many can you have, right?
Chuck Carpenter: [38:50] You have a lot. But unions can be any object type, right? So if you create a bunch of types and then you can say it's person, it's logged in person, it's not logged in person, it's whatever. That can be a union. But let's say yeah, the array of strings.
Robbie Wagner: [39:08] What if you have person sandwich building automobile?
Chuck Carpenter: [39:14] Yeah, you could you can do that if they're types. But if they're enums, which essentially think of it as an array of strings and there's no real checking there, that you have repetitive.
Robbie Wagner: [39:26] It's like a dictionary.
Chuck Carpenter: [39:26] Values. Yeah, there you go. So because let's say I have null and unchecked in two different enums, well, they're kind of like it actually doesn't force you to not have repetitive values. So they're like, no, can't do that. And also, enum is like basically a scaler in GraphQL. And so it's almost like a custom-defined type. And so you can't use those either in unions. And I don't know, it's been the bane of my existence today, and I just want to complain for a minute. And again, anyone at Charles III on Twitter can tell me.
Robbie Wagner: [40:09] Charles w the third.
Chuck Carpenter: [40:11] Charles W the third on Twitter. Thank you for knowing my Twitter handle, because I don't check it, but I should start. And if someone wants to have discourse on this, I would love to because maybe I'm just not smart enough. That's highly possible.
Robbie Wagner: [40:25] I would say there's probably a way to support it. Either that or you're just doing something wrong. But I don't know. Having not done much GraphQL I can't help you.
Chuck Carpenter: [40:33] There's been an open issue on the GraphQL spec since I want to say, 2006 or seven, something like that. I found the issue and then a lot of talk from a lot of smart people, and they didn't get anywhere. Still. Yeah. So we're not getting it anytime soon.
Robbie Wagner: [40:49] That reminds me, I have a quick tech follow-up before we move to not tech. One of the problems I'm having with another client is this thing where we use flexbox and flex columns, right? So it's like as you have more stuff, make more columns. Apparently, it's a bug in every browser that when you auto-add more columns like that, they don't take up width. So you can't have like, a background behind them. They just stop after the first column and then they overflow the container. Anyway. That's just something that's been bothering me a lot. So whoever works on Chrome and all the browsers, please fix that.
Chuck Carpenter: [41:36] And listens to this podcast, which is basically all of the.
Robbie Wagner: [41:39] That's zero overlap. Yeah.
Chuck Carpenter: [41:42] 0% possibility and self-deprecating humor is the best.
Robbie Wagner: [41:46] I would like to have all those people on, but they have to get back with me first.
Chuck Carpenter: [41:51] You already emailed them. I like it.
Robbie Wagner: [41:53] Some, but you are very ambitious in that and I think you're going to five. I got to go six.
Chuck Carpenter: [42:02] So Elon. I know you're listening.
Robbie Wagner: [42:06] Elon, if I had your direct email, I would have Starlink Internet right now.
Chuck Carpenter: [42:12] That's true too. Yeah. So there's a two facet there also, do you like free whiskey?
Robbie Wagner: [42:19] Who doesn't, right?
Chuck Carpenter: [42:20] No, I would think some people own a company, get free whiskey and never come on. So there's that too.
Robbie Wagner: [42:27] Yeah.
Chuck Carpenter: [42:29] Shade.
Robbie Wagner: [42:30] He who shall not be named.
Chuck Carpenter: [42:33] I don't know. All our stuff has moved to Netlify. That's all I'm going to say.
Robbie Wagner: [42:38] Well, for those that have been paying attention, if you listen to some other podcasts, you know who we're talking about. Yeah, but anyway, cool. What's going on in not tech?
Chuck Carpenter: [42:48] Yeah, I went to the Friends Experience. I recommend it if it's still around in your neighborhood. I have no idea. Ours just closed shop yesterday. I didn't even know it existed until it showed up on my calendar because that's just how my life goes.
Robbie Wagner: [43:05] I like that. I would like to have activities show up on my calendar.
Chuck Carpenter: [43:09] You would? Well, I suggest you have a shared family calendar. Well, you might be a little ways away from the whole like you can get a babysitting experience whenever you want.
Robbie Wagner: [43:20] No.
Chuck Carpenter: [43:21] Unless your parents are going to kick in.
Robbie Wagner: [43:24] We're not old enough yet to where Caitlyn trusts anyone watching him. So we just can't do anything where we don't bring him.
Chuck Carpenter: [43:31] Yeah. It's like one and a half, right? Yeah. Or one and a half months. Sorry. Yes, you got to say the months. Everything is months for the next at least two years.
Robbie Wagner: [43:39] Yeah. I mean, we decided we're not doing that, though. We're going to say like after a year. It's like year and a couple of months or whatever.
Chuck Carpenter: [43:48] No, you're going to do it.
Robbie Wagner: [43:50] I hate it though.
Chuck Carpenter: [43:51] Until you get to 24. I don't believe you. I also hate it.
Robbie Wagner: [43:56] If I say my son is 20 months old. Please strike me down right there.
Chuck Carpenter: [44:01] And this is how I become sole owner of Ship Shape. Finally, I've got an in.
Robbie Wagner: [44:08] Speaking of which, we have things to make that easier. One of my topics that I wanted to quickly mention, they should be a sponsor if they would like a Middesk Agent. Allows you to register as a business in every state in the US easily. So if you have lots of remote employees or whatever, makes it super easy. So I started that process. So once we're registered everywhere and I'm not the registered agent, what do we need me for?
Chuck Carpenter: [44:34] Finally? Well, QuickBooks, because I'm not touching it.
Robbie Wagner:[44:37] True.
Chuck Carpenter: [44:37] I'm not touching it. No. I will kill you and hire someone to do that.
Robbie Wagner: [44:44] Yeah, that's it. I want to get Zendo to do that. But that's another topic. So I know you were watching some of the Kentucky Derby, because I know you were probably having some drinks during the time because I got some passive-aggressive emails to some people that had not responded to us about things and texts that were like, I'm going to buy some whiskey. What do we need?
Chuck Carpenter: [45:10] I'm not sure that those two events overlapped. I remember just being frustrated at the end of last week because I just felt a little drained, and I was like, how can I take this out on people who don't work for us? Emails? Yeah, because we pay the money. Yeah, the whiskey thing was more of a top-of-mind kind of thing. Like, oh, I'm seeing, like, 47 Woodford Reserve advertisements. I don't want to buy that, but we need some. Right? Cool. In an ironic turn of events, because I drank so much whiskey on this podcast over this weekend, I just had Negronis. So that's for those uncultured folks. I'm not that cultured, I guess, but gin.
Robbie Wagner: [45:56] Those uninformed.
Chuck Carpenter: [45:57] Uninformed. There you go. Gin, Campari, and sweet vermouth in equal parts 1oz. Unless you have a drinking problem and then you double that, I guess. I don't know. I try to stick to the one, though, because it's a serious drink. But it's nice. It's fun. It's refreshing. For the summer. You do a little orange rind in there. Some people do orange slice. I like the rind. Yeah, it's nice. It's good. I spent a lot of time trying to work on so I installed a misting system, like a month ago, and then it has been nothing but trouble since.
Robbie Wagner: [46:33] Misting system?
Chuck Carpenter: [46:34] Yes.
Robbie Wagner:[46:35] Like for sitting by the pool or something?
Chuck Carpenter: [46:37] No, for sitting in our just, like, patio porch area. So in the back, we have, like, big porch that's shaded, but when it's 100 plus degrees, shade doesn't matter that much. We don't really have humidity, but it gets really hot. So we want to extend that time that we can just sit outside. So it got misters. So it's essentially like a line with every couple of feet, you have a.
Robbie Wagner: [47:02] Little hole in the line.
Chuck Carpenter:[47:04] You have, like, a little fitting, and then it just mist out the water. And it's kind of nice. Like, it just kind of does a mist curtain is what they say of mist.
Robbie Wagner: [47:15] So you just need a vending machine and a character in your Disney World.
Chuck Carpenter: [47:20] I don't think I get that.
Robbie Wagner:[47:22] They all have misting machines. Like, whenever you're at any theme park in Florida, they're always, like, top every 5ft and there's a big mist tunnel of, like yes.
Chuck Carpenter:[47:32] So it's like that. We actually have, like, a spray bottle with, like, a fan on it from the last time we were in Disney World because it was so hot.
Robbie Wagner: [47:41] I got one of those from SeaWorld.
Chuck Carpenter: [47:43] Yeah. So it's like that, but it's like this big line of things. You just plug it into your hose, and then it does the mist, and you're, like, ten degrees cooler anyway.
Robbie Wagner: [47:54] So you're basically turning one room into the same humidity level as DC.
Chuck Carpenter: [47:58] Yeah, sort of. It gets cooler, though. It gets cooler and not sweaty.
Robbie Wagner: [48:05] Right.
Chuck Carpenter: [48:05] So it's kind of nice, but then.
Robbie Wagner: [48:07] It just takes a lot of effort.
Chuck Carpenter: [48:09] I'm not excited about that. What I am excited about is at Ship Shape. We try and endorse the virtual reality as well, and I picked up a.
Robbie Wagner: [48:22] Metaverse as you will.
Chuck Carpenter: [48:23] Well, the metaverse is something else. I don't know that I endorse that as much, but we gave them money as you do. Yeah, you can't escape. So I have an Oculus headset. Some of us do. Tried a mini-golf game. I'm not a big golfing fan, but miniature golf is super fun. It's kind of kitschy, whatever it's called. Walkabout minigolf, something like that. It's a really fun miniature golf game.
Robbie Wagner: [48:50] Are the courses, like, crazy holes with obstacles and stuff, or what's the vibe?
Chuck Carpenter: [48:56] Yes. No, you get all kinds of different crazy courses. So you can do the Arizona course, and then it'll be like, kind of an Arizona setup, or you can do different completely different environments, and then each of those have crazy obstacles in your way, and you got to figure all that out. Yeah, it's fun. You can walk around, or you can.
Robbie Wagner: [49:20] I think it was Holy Moly. Did you ever watch that show?
Chuck Carpenter: [49:24] I didn't.
Robbie Wagner: [49:25] It was like a funny putt-putt show where the holes are, like, insane. Like, you have to hit it across a ton of water and then run across without falling in the water or you get disqualified. It was pretty crazy. And then Steph Curry was always the guest hitter at the end. So you could either have the putt bot, which would just be a robot that would drive it for you, or Steph Curry come out and hit. I guess he was a producer or something. I don't know why he was always there. I would recommend checking it out. It was fun.
Chuck Carpenter: [50:01] It's funny. I don't like golf, but I do like miniature golf.
Robbie Wagner: [50:04] Yeah, well, I like Top Golf.
Chuck Carpenter: [50:08] I've heard this is cool. I haven't been there. It's fun, but my son has expressed some interest in golf, and it was recommended as, like, oh, they have a lot of kid-friendly stuff.
Robbie Wagner: [50:18] Yeah now is a great time. I don't know if they've had stuff like this before, but we went within the past few weeks sometime, and they have an Angry Birds edition right now, and it tracks where your ball is, and it shows you a virtual Angry Birds that you're, like, trying to hit the stuff down and crush the pigs or whatever. That's extra fun.
Chuck Carpenter: [50:40] Yeah, that sounds cool. I might do that. I mean, I, like, trying to crush the ball. I just don't want to put it in a little hole that's so far away.
Robbie Wagner:[50:50] I agree. I don't have any of that finesse. I just want to hit it as hard as I can. I usually use only the wedge, which is like, I can't get the driver to work right, so I just get the wedge because it's really, like, angled, so you get a lot of air underneath.
Robbie Wagner: [51:04] Yeah. There's a really funny Robin Williams get about golf, and he's doing a Scottish accent and he's just, like, talking about introducing this game to his friends. And he's like, hit it as far as you can. You're avoiding the sand out of the trees, blah, blah. And you do this and then you finally hit it in the hole. And then his friend is like, oh, and then that's it, and you win. And he's like, no, you do it 18 fucking times. And that is, like, how I feel about golf. Yeah. It's a real commitment and I'm obviously not going to be good for a while.
Robbie Wagner: [51:46] Well, so the fun thing about golf, though, is you go out with your friends and people just keep offering you beer and you ride around on a cart and you don't ever have to actually make it in the hole. You could hit it way off and be like, I just give up on this hole and go to the next one.
Chuck Carpenter: [52:01] Right. If you don't take it seriously.
Robbie Wagner: [52:02] Yeah. I'm going to play a real round this summer with some friends and see how it goes. I've only done, like, Top Golf and driving ranges and stuff before, so I never had to do, like, hit it to a place, hit it to another place, and then try to put it, which sounds really hard.
Chuck Carpenter: [52:18] Yeah. So clearly we've never spent any time playing sports together because I take them all very seriously.
Robbie Wagner: [52:26] So you won't play anything you're not going to win at?
Chuck Carpenter: [52:29] Basically, at this point in life. Yeah. You like basketball shorts? Are you good at basketball? Because I used to be pretty good and I would play you at that.
Robbie Wagner: [52:37] So, yeah, we should do a one-on-one basketball because I can only make it from half court, which is fun because I used to play with some people, like every week or two. And everyone wouldn't guard you at half-court. And I would just switch it from half-court and then run the other way. And after four times in a row, people are like, guard that guy at half court.
Chuck Carpenter: [52:59] Apparently. We need to stop him. So basketball, soccer, obviously.
Chuck Carpenter: [53:05] Yeah.
Robbie Wagner: [53:06] Tennis. Pretty decent at tennis, or used to be a long time ago.
Robbie Wagner: [53:10] I can't figure out tennis. I watch people do you hit it and kind of like, curve it over to slap it down, but I just hit it and hit it out of the fence every time.
Chuck Carpenter: [53:18] Right. So you're like, doing this so that you can spin it, and then it pops up on the other side. You want it to pop up on them?
Robbie Wagner: [53:26] I've never figured it out. I could play casually, but I cannot competitively play tennis.
Chuck Carpenter: [53:31] Pickleball is a big thing these days. I don't really know, but I've seen a bunch about pickleball.
Robbie Wagner: [53:38] That's the one that's like tennis size ping pong, right?
Chuck Carpenter: [53:41] Yes. Which seems kind of funny.
Robbie Wagner: [53:44] Yeah, seems fun. I don't know that it would be all that competitive, but.
Chuck Carpenter: [53:48] It depends if we play, it would be. So anyway, there's that side of things. The fact that yeah. I am problematic in sports, and also it sounds like I would need to make more friends.
Robbie Wagner: [54:02] For what?
Chuck Carpenter: [54:03] To go golfing?
Robbie Wagner: [54:03] Yes. Okay.
Chuck Carpenter: [54:04] You got to go golf with friends. It's a thing to do with friends and get handed beers and like, oh, well, I guess I better make some friends.
Robbie Wagner: [54:11] I think you only need enough people to fill a small golf cart, which is four, including you. So three others.
Chuck Carpenter: [54:17] Three other people. Well, I have siblings I can force into it, I guess.
Robbie Wagner: [54:22] Yeah. I mean, I don't have a lot of friends, but I have enough people. I could make golf with me.
Chuck Carpenter: [54:31] Back to the original point, which is walkabout mini golf. Recommend it. It's fun. And you can co-op. We could do it as a company thing.
Robbie Wagner: [54:40] What's the maximum number of players?
Chuck Carpenter: [54:42] I don't know. The max, since I've only done two players every time.
Robbie Wagner: [54:48] Well, we can try it.
Chuck Carpenter: [54:49] All right. I'll find that out, and then we'll put it on our agenda.
Robbie Wagner: [54:53] All right.
Chuck Carpenter: [54:53] Official.
Robbie Wagner: [54:54] I think the only thing we haven't covered from our list, which isn't really important, but just for those who have been listening to the saga of the truck, the truck is back. I have been driving it to and from the office. It is still very old and crappy.
Chuck Carpenter: [55:12] But I feel like you didn't think this through.
Robbie Wagner: [55:14] No. So what I should have done, which wouldn't have worked with the frame that my truck size is, is get one that's like the size of a modern car, take just the cool-looking metal off the top, put a whole new car underneath, drop the metal back down. That's what you should do to have, like, a nice driving vehicle. But we've got a true-to-its antique age truck, which some people like, but not necessarily my jam.
Chuck Carpenter: [55:44] Yeah, you didn't think it through in terms of period appropriate. Like, you want creature comforts. That's the problem. Yeah. You want creature comforts. That was never going to happen in an old car.
Robbie Wagner: [55:55] No.
Chuck Carpenter: [55:55] And I know they do that. Sort of like, oh, put the shell on a different frame and whatever else. Yeah. This is a planning issue.
Robbie Wagner: [56:02] Yeah, I learned a lot.
Chuck Carpenter: [56:03] Yeah. You should just put it on Mecum, and be done with it. That's my suggestion.
Robbie Wagner: [56:07] So we're thinking about just selling it and using that money to get the Rivian that I still have the pre-order for, because that price is starting to look attractive compared to Tesla's and whatever else is out there.
Chuck Carpenter: [56:21] Yeah. Since we're locked in early on, that would be pretty awesome even. Just get the truck. Maybe you'll get one sooner.
Robbie Wagner: [56:28] I don't know. I don't really want I mean, this sounds dumb because the truck that I have is small, but I'm like, well, that truck is small. You can't put anything in the bed. The same is true with my truck now.
Chuck Carpenter: [56:39] Right? You have a people mover.
Robbie Wagner: [56:41] Yeah.
Chuck Carpenter:[56:41] So you should get something that is a thing mover, potentially, if you're going down that path. For sure.
Robbie Wagner: [56:46] I'm waiting for someone from Rivian to reach out and decide, based on what they say, what I want to get. But we'll see. I do like that the truck has the kitchen option and some of that cool stuff.
Chuck Carpenter: [56:59] Yeah, it'd be pretty sweet. It'd be a good farm truck.
Robbie Wagner: [57:04] I don't know about that. It's a good camping and tailgate truck.
Chuck Carpenter: [57:07] Yeah, for sure.
Robbie Wagner: [57:08] All right, well, we're at time here, so thanks, everyone, for listening to our ramblings about nothing. If you liked it, please subscribe and we'll catch you guys next time.
Chuck Carpenter: [57:22] Thanks for listening to Whiskey Web and Whatnot. This podcast is brought to you Ship Shape and produced by Podcast Royale. If you like this episode, consider sharing it with a friend or two and leave us a rating, maybe a review, as long as it's good.
Robbie Wagner: [57:37] You can subscribe to future episodes on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more info about Ship Shape, and this show, check out our website at shipshape.io.