39: Reacting to React, WWDC22, and Bun.sh

Robbie Wagner: [00:09] What's going on, everybody? Welcome to another Whiskey Web and Whatnot with myself, Robbie Wagner, and my cohost, as always, Charles William Carpenter III.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:19] The Third.

Robbie Wagner: [00:20] We have another bullshit addition for you today where we talk about nothing for an hour, and hopefully, some people enjoy it because we've had some guests for the past few now, I think. And we're just going to chat now.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:33] Yeah, just going back to where we started, just us. We always get to talk to other people and then people forget all about us. We're the center of this. And the theme today is it's all bullshit anyway.

Robbie Wagner: [00:45] Yeah. Speaking of which, we'll start with this private barrel selection from Beast Masters Club. It's the Three Tenors Hogzé, Carreras, whatever that is.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:01] Close enough.

Robbie Wagner: [01:02] Did you just think it sounded like a cool whiskey or do you know anything about these people?

Chuck Carpenter: [01:05] I don't know anything about these people. I forget, like, somebody in this leadership slack that I'm in. There's a whiskey channel and somebody shared one of their barrel picks there. So, I think it's just like a company put together to do barrel picks and sell them off. Pseudo club kind of thing.

Robbie Wagner: [01:23] What we aspire to be yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:25] We aspire to be like that. But we don't want your real money. We're going to want your digital currency.

Robbie Wagner: [01:31] Yeah, we'll talk more about that here in a bit.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:34] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [01:34] But yeah, let's see what else about this.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:36] It is the...

Robbie Wagner: [01:39] It's barrel 6327865.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:43] That's true. Nine years from warehouse T floor 5 in Bardstown. It is a nine-year just good, like age statement, because the Elijah Craig single barrel I think they've stopped doing, like, age statements for their regular stuff. Yeah. What's the mash bill, Robbie?

Robbie Wagner: [01:59] Let's see. It is 78% corn, 10% rye, and 12% malted barley.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:06] Get the pop. Oh, I got to do the pour. Yes.

Robbie Wagner: [02:14] So my entire desk is insanely sticky right now. I don't know if you noticed. In the last podcast, for those who listen to the last one, we did a nonalcoholic whiskey. So, I mixed it with some ginger beer and mid-podcast proceeded to spill it all over my desk and keyboard. And I don't know if you guys noticed while we were recording, but I grabbed a paper towel behind me, and then that wasn't enough, so I got my jacket and soaked it up with my jacket, but it's still really sticky everywhere.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:44] Wow. No, because, like, midway through that podcast, I switched to a regular whiskey so I could get a different taste in my mouth. And so, I became aloof to the videos. Also, your video kept, like, pausing or something, so I don't know. It was probably good timing in that sense. It wasn't that there was the internet lag. It was that you ruined your equipment spilling stuff.

Robbie Wagner: [03:07] Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:09] Anyway, all right, let's give this a sniff to the task at hands. Some nice caramel, leather-bound book rich, mahogany.

Robbie Wagner: [03:13] Smelling some pecans.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:22] Like pecan pie. Pe-CAHN pie. PEE-ken pie. PEE-ken pie.

Robbie Wagner: [03:27] Yeah. Not the pie, though. It's not super sweet to me, just the nut.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:31] See, I am getting the sweetness. So, pecan pie includes what is that, like maple syrup or something? Maybe.

Robbie Wagner: [03:38] It is...

Chuck Carpenter: [03:39] Caramel. I'm not sure.

Robbie Wagner: [03:40] I think several kinds of corn syrup, like, really terrible. It's not something you should eat, but it is delicious.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:48] Right? I mean, there's nothing wrong with those nuts on their own. But isn't it funny how so many pies are just, like, sweeten the hell out of something? Like, pumpkin pie isn't anything like pumpkin. It's just sugar and nutmeg.

Robbie Wagner: [04:01] That's why, like, a pumpkin spice latte tastes the same as a pie, and there's no pumpkin in it because it's just the spice that you like.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:08] Yeah, you don't care about that. That's why it's a fall-time thing when those tasteless squash grow. Yeah. Don't forget to chew it first. It's nice to have a burn again. We have a second taste. I don't know if we said 94 proof, 47% alcohol. So, it's got something a little bitter, a little like orange rind for me. Little rosemary. Kind of strange, but little of that.

Robbie Wagner: [04:46] I was going to say it kind of tastes like the smell when I go out and cut down all the grass in my big fields. Like weedy? I don't know, like a little bit harsh, I guess.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:59] Yeah. And the rye is only 10%, but I feel like that is contributing to this. I would say, Elijah Craig, for me, always tends to be a little spicier. It's a little more punch in the nose.

Robbie Wagner: [05:12] Yeah, I would say it's got a lot of because of the high corn, probably. It's got a lot of your standard bourbon sweetness. And like, a bourbon drinker would like this. But it does have a lot of extra going on.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:24] Yeah. These are just their normal offering. Used to be, like, one of the best bangs for your buck because it was, like 20 to 25 bucks, and it was age-stated and all that. And people started catching on, as they do with many things. Like, this would be a good one in, like, the $20 range. Obviously, you still have Buffalo Trace, which is like, $25 or so. And then back in the day, you used to be able to get Eagle Rare ten-year for, like, $30. It was amazing people figured out. And now it's allocated.

Robbie Wagner: [05:58] I can't imagine anything that's more than, like, five years being, like, 30 bucks because you have to hold onto it for so long. Where's your profit margin when you sell that?

Chuck Carpenter: [06:08] Well, people weren't buying it as much, so you just had a lot more. So, then you had plenty of retail space to let it chill for a bit. Yeah. And then, I don't know, 10-15 years ago, whiskey just started massive traction in the other direction and then more and more and then you couldn't get the rarer things, and then people started exploring more regular things, and then those became the rarer things.

Robbie Wagner: [06:32] Indeed.

Chuck Carpenter: [06:34] It does get smoother the more you have of it.

Robbie Wagner: [06:37] Yeah, I'm pretty pleased with it. I have said this a few times, that we need to do a more concrete rating system so that these mean something, but then I'm lazy and don't come up with the criteria and whatever. But looking at this through the lens of it is not a rye. It has some rye, but it's a bourbon. And to me, it is much better than most bourbons. So, I would give it six, I think.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:11] And even this barrel pick, I think we only spent like 45 bucks on. The normal one, you can get for around 25. But specific to this one, I think it was only like $45. So, your bang for your buck here is really great. I'm going to make it a seven. All right. Seven, seven, seven. Insert, Monica's. Seven. Seven.

Robbie Wagner: [07:36] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:37] Seven.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:37] Anyway, yeah Friends quotes are worthwhile. I think that's going to really increase our listenership. People start to realize that we're going to like pop culture quotes and in particular, Friends. Yeah, people love Friends.

Robbie Wagner: [07:49] They do, they do. I mean, having no friends is not that fun. So, people do like Friends.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:55] They do like friends and the TV show from a while ago. My wife and I went to the Friends experience, I want to say, like two months ago or whatever on a date night, there was a thing, a traveling Friends experience with a bunch of the show props and story and swag to purchase.

Robbie Wagner: [08:12] Covered that on another podcast, though.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:14] Did we? Okay, well, maybe I haven't done that much in life. That's not entirely true.

Robbie Wagner: [08:19] Well, I mean, just talking to me about bullshit day to day probably blends with talking to me about bullshit on the podcast, so I understand.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:28] Yeah, your voice just sounds better when we get on the podcast, that's all. Because you use the mic.

Robbie Wagner: [08:33] Yeah, I got to start using this mic all the time. Like, just show up to meetings for work, be like, yo, it's me. Like, oh, my God, who is talking right now?

Chuck Carpenter: [08:42] Yeah, the problem is the clients I work with forced me to utilize their hardware. I guess I could just plug it in somewhere else, right? Is it that hard? It is for me, yes.

Robbie Wagner: [08:54] Yeah, you need a four USBC switch and just plug it into everything, and then based on what you're using, just switch it.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:02] Okay. I'll get on Amazon right after this. I need that sounds like, yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [09:06] Okay.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:07] All right, tech.

Robbie Wagner: [09:09] Tech.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:09] Let's talk tech before we drink too much whiskey.

Robbie Wagner: [09:12] So we're light on the tech this time. Just some things that have been, I guess, relevant in the past few weeks, one of which I guess we'll start with the earlier one, which was I had a blog post about terminal, like five tricks to make your terminal experience better. I forget what exactly I called it but just wanted to chat a little bit about not just those five things, but things that we enjoy and make our terminal better, things we've learned throughout the years using the terminal. Because I know that I started not knowing. I guess they didn't have a ton of customization maybe when I started using the terminal. But you got a lot of options now with, like, I guess even iTerm lets you do stuff and Hyper and Warp. It's probably others I'm forgetting.

Chuck Carpenter: [10:01] Which one are you using?

Robbie Wagner: [10:02] Never. iTerm I use Warp and Hyper.

Chuck Carpenter: [10:06] Interesting. I just really never gleaned onto Hyper. I don't know. I think I tried it once, but.

Robbie Wagner: [10:11] It's slow. It's a little slow sometimes. But I had a use case for getting a little derailed here, but still terminal related for where Warp would have been really good because I don't know if you realize, but it saves all of your run commands in the cloud, so if you go to another machine, you can figure out what you ran before. So, I started with a new client yesterday and set up everything at home, like, all day long, all the stuff you do. And then got to work today, have a different computer, and had to run commands and could not remember half the commands. So, if I had them all saved in the cloud, I could go, oh, yeah, I ran, like, these ten things, boom boom boom. And sponsored by Warp. Go use Warp.

Chuck Carpenter: [10:59] Hey, I got a T-shirt. I got the T-shirt.

Robbie Wagner: [11:02] Yeah, that counts. Like, something of monetary value, I guess was given to us, so we'll count them as sponsoring us.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:08] Yeah. This episode is sponsored by Warp. The terminal that's faster, but that the settings is still too small for my eyes.

Robbie Wagner: [11:18] Yeah, I occasionally go in and try to see if I can increase that and it still hasn't been fixed.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:23] Yeah, you still can't. I wonder if we could file a bug or I'll just maybe ping him on Twitter or something.

Robbie Wagner: [11:28] Clearly the devs there didn't listen to that podcast we did.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:32] I know, and they're not listening to the founder, so he promised me this would get done and I update regularly just and look at the change log. Hoping it's going to happen. Just hasn't.

Robbie Wagner: [11:45] Looking for the line that says, are you old? Here you go.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:48] Yes. Boom. New features now support renaming tabs now support enabling custom prompt. Anyway, yeah, we're way off the rail, so let's talk about your tips and tricks.

Robbie Wagner: [11:59] Yeah, so the first one is something that I've advocated for since I knew about it. I don't remember when I first started using it. It's been probably around the time I split off and did Ship Shape. So, Fish is the shell that I use.

Chuck Carpenter: [12:13] Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [12:14] And they have this whole sarcastic play on terminals, so if you go to their website, which I'm not even sure what it is. Let me look it up real quick. It might be Fish.shell. Is that a thing?

Chuck Carpenter: [12:26] Like F-I-S-H.shell?

Chuck Carpenter: [12:29] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [12:30] No, no.

Robbie Wagner: [12:30] I don't know. Let's see. Fishshell.com. But it says, finally a command-line shell for the 90s

Chuck Carpenter: [12:37] Oh my gosh.

Robbie Wagner: [12:39] They're like, making fun of themselves there because it came out in 2010 or something. It has, like, auto-completion is the main thing for me. So, everything that I've run before, I can be like, all right, I'm going to Ember serve, and I need to know the proxy I'm going to pass in or whatever, it just remembers that from before. So, I'm just like, all right, cool run that. The downsides, I guess. One of the big downsides is, like, most people write Bash Scripts and you go to run it and it doesn't run in Fish. So, you have to run Bash and then do that.

Chuck Carpenter: [13:16] Fishify it.

Robbie Wagner: [13:17] Yeah, but the autocomplete is great. It has man-page completions from the autocomplete. So, I guess it like parses the man pages of all the things you run. For those that don't know what a man page is, it's like I forget the syntax, but you say, like, man CD or something. It'll tell you like, oh, here's all the arguments you could pass. There's probably not many arguments to CD, but, like, other commands you might run that would have arguments that will tell you, like, here's all the things about it. It's just like documentation. So, it parses all of those pages and determines the different commands you could do, the different options there are so you don't have to know. It's kind of like I don't know if you've used Fig at all or know of it, but it's like an earlier, less robust version of that, I guess. So, Fig is like super autocomplete. It's like an electron app that I think lives on top of your terminal, kind of. I don't know. I'd love to talk to the guy about it. I've emailed him a few times and he hasn't gotten back to me, so if anyone knows him.

Chuck Carpenter: [14:17] He's clearly a listener.

Robbie Wagner: [14:19] Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling about nothing here. But anyways, the autocomplete, that's basically the main thing really.

Chuck Carpenter: [14:25] About Fish. You're a big fan.

Robbie Wagner: [14:27] Trying to look at what else they say is like a selling feature, and it's just no it's fine. Main thing, if you want nice autocomplete, use it.

Chuck Carpenter: [14:38] Okay, let's say you use Z shell. Why would you switch to Fish?

Robbie Wagner: [14:42] Well, I haven't really used Z shell much. Does it have autocomplete?

Chuck Carpenter: [14:46] Yeah, you can get an autocomplete plugin or something, I think.

Robbie Wagner: [14:49] Well, okay, so that's a plugin.

Chuck Carpenter: [14:51] I don't know. I just have a dotfiles thing, and I just run that when I get a new computer. And it does a bunch of stuff for me. And so, one of those is setting up Z shell and my theme and all that fun stuff and it installs Homebrew and Homebrew Cask and all this stuff. So, I don't really need to do anything. So, I don't know, it just happens for me.

Robbie Wagner: [15:12] Yeah. I think Z shell probably has a lot of nice features, too. I know it became the default on Mac somewhat recently. And I think all of that is just saying, like, Bash hasn't innovated at all. It's the same thing it's always been. It does its job, but I don't need to remember all of that stuff. Give me some autocomplete and some nice color themes and I don't know cool stuff.

Chuck Carpenter: [15:34] Yeah. I want my shell to look cool.

Robbie Wagner: [15:37] Yeah. So, speaking of which, I have most of my tips are about it looking cool because that's what really matters when you're developing software, is how cool your stuff looks. Because if you don't have a nice theme and font, then are you really developing? I don't know. I think your code is more brittle and people look down on you.

Chuck Carpenter: [15:54] Yeah. Do you have an opinion about anything?

Robbie Wagner: [15:55] Basically, yeah. So, the stylistic things real quick one is I use a font called MonoLisa. It's Mona Lisa play on words, but.

Chuck Carpenter: [16:09] Hahaha.

Robbie Wagner: [16:12] I can't really describe it. I think in my blog post I said it's just nice and I don't really know why. And one of our employees reviewed the post and was like, hey, but could you try to say why? Like, this is a blog post. People read the words. So let me see if I just said it feels clean and extremely legible. And their website says it was designed to improve developers' productivity and reduce fatigue.

Chuck Carpenter: [16:37] Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [16:38] And I think it does that. It's just really readable. It just feels less cumbersome to work with than other fonts.

Chuck Carpenter: [16:45] Okay. Yeah. I think I use it because you provided it for us and I installed it and that was it. I don't know. I don't really have a preference on those things.

Robbie Wagner: [16:57] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [16:57] Like, I need to fit in with everyone else at the company.

Robbie Wagner: [17:01] For those that have, like one that has, like, the Script DLS and stuff that I personally don't like, it supports that. It supports a lot of terminal plugins and things to have nice prompts need, like special fonts, do, like little arrows and emojis and I don't know, stuff to make it look cool. It supports all of that as well. I think they call it like a "power font" or "nerd font" or something. I forget how they refer to it, but it's like you have to have one of those to use this stuff.

Chuck Carpenter: [17:33] Right. Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [17:34] So then I guess one of the things. Did I put it in here? I don't even know what I was doing on my notes, but looking at my blog post, this will be the last one I'll go over because I'm just rambling about nothing here but Starship. Is this, like, cross-shell prompt that lets you just have a lot of nice stuff in your prompt so you can see like your Git branch, your version of Node, or whatever else you might be using, like Rust or all your tool versions. I guess just lots of different info about the directory you're in, the project you're working on and it just feels nice and like you're getting lots of info and know what you're doing. So, recommend that.

Chuck Carpenter: [18:18] Is that a Fish thing or just a terminal thing?

Robbie Wagner: [18:20] That's all I got. No, it's cross-shell, it is everything.

Chuck Carpenter: [18:26] Oh.

Robbie Wagner: [18:26] So you can use it on anything and any terminal, any shell, all of the above and it works.

Chuck Carpenter: [18:32] Okay, well, I'm going to have to read this article.

Robbie Wagner: [18:35] Yeah, I mean, at least one person should, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [18:39] Exactly. Anyone who has the RSS feed and they see your name, they're like, I'm going to skip this one. I'm not usually getting much out from this guy. He's talking about Ember again. He must be. I don't work at LinkedIn, so I guess I'll skip it.

Robbie Wagner: [18:52] Yeah,

Chuck Carpenter: [18:53] It was funny. So, in research mode for a future episode, you'd discuss with me, but Bun.sh as like it's essentially a task runner compiler, like many things, tool.

Robbie Wagner: [19:10] Bundler, minifier TypeScript, compiler, all the things.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:15] Yeah, all the things which like getting away from TSC would be a good thing because it takes forever, but I digress. So, I was looking at that and then also just like looking at some of these Slack channels or Discords tech ones. Is anybody talking about this thing? And there was a guy in the same leadership, Slack, who works for LinkedIn and was like, this and Remix are two of the biggest things I'm really excited about this year because of how fast this is, and Remix solves a bunch of problems for me. And you actually can combine the two. You can use this with Remix. But that was interesting.

Robbie Wagner: [19:48] Yeah, I thought it was just NextJS, but I guess it's configurable.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:52] Yeah, basically it can hook into a bunch of stuff and I guess Remix is enough, like Create React app that it has similar hooks in their API, so you can set it up to use this. So, I'm like, oh, that seems interesting. The Next thing, I guess without getting too much into it, but I was just reading the docs and yes, it works with Next, but it actually doesn't work 100% with Next, doesn't work with API routes and middleware, which are two pretty big things with Next right now.

Robbie Wagner: [20:20] So it works with front end only or static sites, I guess.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:25] Basically. So, working its way into that.

Robbie Wagner: [20:28] I think it's very work in progress. They just wanted to show I can do this small set of things incredibly fast and everything else is like coming soon, I guess. But yeah, we'll have to build some kind of project with it. We need to set up hack days or something. Like we need more stuff to do right?

Chuck Carpenter: [20:47] Right. We need to set up hack days, but also we need to stop doing a bunch of other things in tandem together.

Robbie Wagner: [20:56] Yes. So, we'll investigate Bun some more and give you some more details on exactly how much faster it is, what it does, what it doesn't on a future episode.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:11] Teaser. We can't tell you anything useful in this. This is the bullshit episode.

Robbie Wagner: [21:14] Yeah, of course. We're speeding through tech that no one cares about so that we can get to the Whatnot? That's what everyone wants, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [21:24] I thought everybody just wanted the whiskey tasting and they're going to take our tentacles and say, this is really important to me. This one got six or seven tentacles. I need to get it immediately.

Robbie Wagner: [21:36] I would say there's probably, like two people that listen to the podcast that care about the whiskey. I could see there being a couple of people that maybe think it's fun to occasionally go by the whisky and drink along with us or something, which would be kind of fun. But I think most people want to hear about what we're talking about, not the whiskey.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:55] It would be cool if we could do a live episode.

Robbie Wagner: [21:59] We could.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:59] We'd obviously record it and publish it and stuff, too, but do a live episode and then have people able to I guess we probably have to do it to another zoom or, I don't know, something else where people could join.

Robbie Wagner: [22:11] It can be a perk of the NFT. You get to be part of the small audience of the recording.

Chuck Carpenter: [22:17] Yes. Bored Octo. Our NFT is Bored Octo Whiskey Club. Bored Octo Whiskey Club.

Robbie Wagner: [22:27] We're almost to that. Real quick on the tech. I actually didn't watch anything about WWDC personally. I watched maybe like 2 minutes of the keynote and I've read a couple of articles or skimmed, not even read. But the main thing I wanted to bring up, and I think this was actually announced last WWDC that you could do web extensions in Safari. So, like, Ember Inspector I don't know what the other ones are called. Like React DevTools or view DevTools, whatever they're called, can all be the same code that they write those in for the Chrome version can now get shipped to Safari. I would guess some of the bigger ones, like, probably React-based ones, just wrote a totally separate app of some sort that would support Safari, but I had no idea how to do that. So, the Ember one has never been on Safari until hopefully soon. I did actually run it in Safari. Like, it works, but now the problem becomes publishing it because you have to publish it as a Mac app. So, you need like an account, which we have. But I'm not the owner of Ember Inspector, so I probably can't publish it under our account. So, we're trying to figure all that out. That'll be hopefully coming soon.

Chuck Carpenter: [23:43] Yeah, it's useful. I mean, trying to debug things that are on a different engine and being able to use your familiar tools. I mean, that seems pretty beneficial.

Robbie Wagner: [23:52] Yeah. And of course, as they do every time there's an event, they tell me how out of date and shitty my computer that I bought 5 minutes ago is by releasing the M two. And I'm guessing because M two is just for MacBook Air and maybe just Air right now.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:11] I thought it was a Pro.

Robbie Wagner: [24:12] No, there's like the 13-inch, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [24:14] Yeah, I was going to say I think it's on the 13-inch Pro and then the Air. Yeah, but didn't the iPad Air also get a chip update? And that's why it's supposed to be so great as like a second monitor situation. I don't know. I did watch a highlight of the things and I saw where you have a normal Apple display and then you have the iPad Air and you're plugging it in and it's supposed to have the same resolution and color matching and all this crazy stuff.

Robbie Wagner: [24:47] Interesting.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:48] I think a chip upgrade is part of that.

Robbie Wagner: [24:50] Yeah, I know that you could use an iPad as a screen with like Sidecar or whatever before.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:55] Right.

Robbie Wagner: [24:55] But I never did it because I have enough real screens.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:59] Yeah, I tried it out just for fun. Like, oh, what's this look like? Okay, this is nothing I'm going to do on a regular basis. I mean, I know that they're moving to where iPad Air can be your primary computer, depending I've tried to nudge my wife in that direction for a while.

Robbie Wagner: [25:16] You mean MacBook Air?

Chuck Carpenter: [25:17] No, not Air. The iPad Pro.

Robbie Wagner: [25:21] Yeah, that's why all of the apps run the same. And you can install mobile apps on desktop and vice versa because they're all on the Apple chips. So that's doable now.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:33] Yeah, so it's like this can be a primary computer for a lot of people plugging into a monitor with excellent resolution and they're saying like people in a production aspect. Right. Like, let's say you are a designer working on things and you plug your thing and you get color matching, great resolution, all this stuff. Like, what do you need another computer for? Unless you're doing high processor-intensive things. Yeah music or video production, people still need the real deal.

Robbie Wagner: [26:05] Or those that run NPM install. They need lots of Ram and CPU.

Chuck Carpenter: [26:11] Yeah. And they edit text files that another computer interprets and outputs. They need as much Ram as possible. Definitely.

Robbie Wagner: [26:21] Yeah. I mean, I have a ridiculous amount of Ram in every machine I own and all of them get bogged down all the time from just writing text.

Chuck Carpenter: [26:32] Yeah, but I think half of that has to do with Chrome memory usage and then other apps utilizing Chrome also. So, like VS Code, right? Like it's using Chrome and Chrome is using Chrome and some other stuff using Chrome. And then all of those end up with like a ton.

Robbie Wagner: [26:51] All your Electron apps are using Chrome.

Chuck Carpenter: [26:52] Exactly. Slack. I think Slack is an Electron app, right?

Robbie Wagner: [26:56] No, it was, and now it's like, is it called Mac Gap or something? Let me see.

Chuck Carpenter: [27:03] No.

Robbie Wagner: [27:04] Yes. Maybe.

Chuck Carpenter: [27:05] All of those start to become super memory intensive, though, over time.

Robbie Wagner: [27:11] It's basically still like Electron, but it doesn't have to run all of Chrome. I think, so it's much smaller.

Chuck Carpenter: [27:19] It's called something else. Yeah, I see. That's how you get around it. You just call it something else, make the exact same tech, but call it something else. And then people will be like, I don't know, this one's fine. Yeah, we should do that. Kind of like with Swatch, right?

Robbie Wagner: [27:31] I was going to say.

Chuck Carpenter: [27:32] That's another app that you just remade in Electron and released it across platforms, which we don't even know anymore, whether it works in the other ones. Like, does it work on Windows and Linux still?

Robbie Wagner: [27:44] Well, I get error reports from Windows, so someone's using it on Windows, and I think if it were super broken, they would have emailed us. But I don't know. I get several emails whenever I break things for people on Mac. There's a lot of people using it on Mac that are like, hey, apparently when we did the login stuff, I did my if statement wrong for showing the color picker. So, the thing was if you signed in once and then signed out again, we didn't want to let you do anything because you needed to sign back in once you've signed in one time. But what happened was even if you signed in again, you couldn't see the color picker. This guy was like, yeah, I signed up and I don't have a color picker anymore. And I've tried signing in and out and I still don't have a color picker. And I'm like, okay, I'll try to fix it. So, I fixed it and got it out there. But yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [28:40] He sent you a small donation for coffee.

Robbie Wagner: [28:42] No, he didn't. A couple of people have.

Chuck Carpenter: [28:45] Oh, wow, great. Yeah, because we've paid people to help us with that out. So right now, it's a net loss. But it is an interesting space for experimentation.

Robbie Wagner: [28:54] Yeah, it was mainly for me to learn TypeScript and Electron and all those things. It wasn't about the app.

Chuck Carpenter: [29:00] Let's rewrite it Next and Electron.

Robbie Wagner: [29:03] We could, but then I'd have to learn React.

Chuck Carpenter: [29:06] Yeah, you'd have to learn Next. Next is the framework. React is just a library.

Robbie Wagner: [29:11] I know Next. I don't even have to know Next, and I know it because it's a good framework. React by itself is just a huge learning curve because it's like, okay, we're going to do all this stuff that looks nothing like anything anyone else is doing and make you use hooks and all this stuff that you don't want to do.

Chuck Carpenter: [29:30] Which is kind of interesting because they say we're a library for rendering, but then they include this thing that is about state management for your thing and so it is opinionated in that way. Versus the way things had been before where you would be like, okay, I need state management, how do I want to do that? I've got all of these options, which one do I pick? But now you don't pick that. I need routing, what do I pick? It's becoming more opinionated as its user base continues to grow and becomes more opinionated.

Robbie Wagner: [29:59] Yeah, that's my big thing. I always harp on, I want someone else to have the opinions. I don't want to be like, oh, let me put 16 directories in to put components in. Like no, there's probably be a components folder and like, oh, let me figure out how to set up my routes. Or you could just have the routes folder auto-generate routes from the files in there. Or once all those nice things are there, the underlying framework doesn't really matter as much then. My only qualm with React is that I just don't like JSX syntax. But otherwise once Next layers on a lot of magic, it makes React a lot more tolerable for someone who doesn't want to do React.

Chuck Carpenter: [30:40] Yes, it has all those opinions. I was going to say you don't even have a routes directory, you just have pages. What are they? They're pages. As I move through pages, this automatically creates my route structure. Tomato, tomato.

Robbie Wagner: [30:50] Right.

Chuck Carpenter: [30:51] And I'm not sure about Remix, but given it's from the React Router people, I'm sure it follows those patterns and uses that. So, I guess it's there, right? I would guess it sets up something automatically for you. Redwood, we didn't look at, but that seems very opinionated.

Robbie Wagner: [31:09] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [31:09] So it's out there, it's waiting for you.

Robbie Wagner: [31:12] I know. I think Redwood is going to be my first React project given the time to dive into React, that's like I want to build an app with that because it's where I'm most comfortable. I want all the opinions, I want authentication built-in so I don't have to worry about that. I want everything that I want to build an app and not have to be like install this package and use this package. Just want it to work.

Chuck Carpenter: [31:34] Yeah, I do like that aspect of it because it's the framework for startups and like every startup needs authentication. So, we just give it to you, we've given you an opinion there. This is the best way to do it. I like that.

Robbie Wagner: [31:49] And there is now a million-dollar startup fund courtesy of Tom Preston-Werner.

Chuck Carpenter: [31:54] Really?

Robbie Wagner: [31:54] For using Redwood.

Chuck Carpenter: [31:56] Okay, well, here we go. Since we are close friends, we bought him whiskey. I think that makes us friends. Yeah, we should maybe shoot for that. What's our start-up idea?

Robbie Wagner: [32:08] Actually don't know if we bought him whiskey. Did he already have it? Because he had that whiskey and we bought the whiskey. Yeah, he just hadn't opened it yet, and we were like, oh, we'll buy the same thing. No, we're not that good of friends. I guess we'll send him some of our barrel pick.

Chuck Carpenter: [32:22] We should do that.

Robbie Wagner: [32:22] Unsolicited, just here you go. Yeah. We have your address. Do we?

Chuck Carpenter: [32:27] No, we don't.

Robbie Wagner: [32:28] I'm not sure.

Chuck Carpenter: [32:28] Yeah, we should do that. We'll ping them, send them some whiskey, and then try to get some of that multi-million dollar startup funds for our many startup ideas. Yeah, we have so many ideas, we just haven't had the money.

Robbie Wagner: [32:41] I mean, I have another copying an app idea. Like, I just want to kind of copy some of the coworking space management apps that charge everyone, like, many thousands of dollars a year to bill people with Stripe. I can build a thing that'll bill people with Stripe and, like, book conference rooms. That's not hard.

Chuck Carpenter: [32:58] That's true. Do we need to buy some servers and host it locally, or should we get into the cloud?

Robbie Wagner: [33:04] Yeah, I would definitely not host it locally. That's a nightmare, having hosted some things locally way back in the day. No, thank you. Yeah, so we'll get in the cloud.

Chuck Carpenter: [33:14] There we go. We both have a project. You build the app, and I will take care of the infrastructure. Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [33:20] You're already slinging the YAML over there.

Chuck Carpenter: [33:22] I know, I need to sling some YAML. I got pulled out of that recently, and now I'm, like, creating UI and not loving that life.

Robbie Wagner: [33:30] You had to use CSS any?

Chuck Carpenter: [33:32] No, luckily, so far. Not because I'm using, like, pre-built components in a library that is essentially an extension of material UI. So, you just grab the thing and put it there. You don't really need to do anything. You just grab the thing and put it there. Yeah, they've already decided what it looks like, so you can live with that and do some client-side, create GraphQL queries, but. It's not the fun part. It's not the fun part, just so you know.

Robbie Wagner: [33:58] Yeah. All right, that's enough attempt at talking tech. We made it sound like we've developed websites before sometime in our lives.

Chuck Carpenter: [34:07] Yeah, we know some tech. We've heard of tech, and we say it and we go buzzword, buzzword, buzzword.

Robbie Wagner: [34:13] Kubernetes. All right, let's go on to the next thing.

Chuck Carpenter: [34:17] If you know what K8s means, you're cool.

Robbie Wagner: [34:22] Yeah. So, tell the folks at home about your recent Italy trip and all the things that went wrong or right or whatever you want to talk about.

Chuck Carpenter: [34:32] Yeah, I've been thinking about this a little bit lately because people are, oh, how was your trip? And what most people tend to do is they always keep it real light-hearted, and, oh, it was great, and I had some great pasta, and it was happy, happy, happy. And I am authentic in my description, but I also feel like people have no sympathy for me whatsoever. Right? You went to Italy for two weeks. Yeah. Shut up. It was amazing. Boohoo, did you eat a bunch of pizza? That was so great. Well, I had Domino's or some ramen noodles? Because my life sucks. But the reality was it was an adventure, so it wasn't really a vacation. We were traveling and it was interesting and there was an adventure aspect to it, but it wasn't that relaxing. There were a couple of moments, but so get there and not all the bags arrived. And most importantly, the bag that includes all of our we were going for a wedding initially and then some traveling, and the bag that included all of our wedding apparel was missing, including and then also like my toiletries and medication and whatever else was basically super screwed for the initial reason why we were there. Spoiler alert, they never found the right one. We scrambled and bought some things that would kind of do, and I had to get things like deodorant. I didn't have deodorant on day one. Maybe that's my fault for packing that stuff in a checked bag, because traditionally before family, I would never check bags. Way back in the day, I used to work for an airline. I know what they do with bags, toss them around and whatever else is not great, but at a certain point, you just can't pack everything in a backpack and get by and then your family grows and whatever else.

Robbie Wagner: [36:18] Yes. Anything that I wouldn't want to lose I always keep with me in a backpack or carry-on.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:24] Yeah, I mean, all electronics 100%. Did I just get to a point where I don't want to deal with liquids and their size and all that bull crap? Especially if you travel internationally, those standards get real fluctuating and you get stopped for an hour and it's just yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [36:40] They change if you go like because we had this in Italy, like going to Italy, if you stop and get on another flight in England, their amounts of liquids are different and they have to all fit in their tiny bag, whereas they're a little more loose on like in America so.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:56] Yeah, well, they know that we like to go big, so they give us a little more. It's like 3oz here and 100 ML there or something like that. It doesn't translate exactly. So, everything you buy that you think is travel size isn't once you get to Europe. And if you have to go through another customs, we did through England, so we went through Heathrow. We had some of that, pulled us over, and had to move crap around. So, there was that too. We get there and got a scramble. Wedding was great and all that kind of stuff. We had a couple of places do some bait and switch on us, too, which is an interesting thing. So, we left the wedding and we were driving to the reception, dinner party, all that kind of stuff. Is like, an hour away in a near a town called Caserta up in the mountains. And so, it's kind of rural. Not a lot of options there, but we had an Airbnb, and as we're driving, the host says, oh, we had a problem. Person before you had Covid, and so we got to switch your place. And we're like, well, and they sent us some pictures, and is this okay or I'll refund you? Well, I was like, we're on our way to you.

Robbie Wagner: [38:06] Got to stay somewhere.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:08] And I've got small kids and I'm in this town, so it's not like, oh, I can cancel and grab a place at the Holiday Inn. There's not a lot of options there anyway, so we have to accept that. And it's like, okay, well, this kind of stuff happens. It was a little weird. We did find out later. We went through his reviews again and looks like he does this on a regular basis, so I don't think he even owns the place that he's advertising. And so always put somebody into an alternate place. That was weird when we were going to Rome and we booked through this thing called Plum Guide, but then the post was this whole other app called Sonder, and they were like, oh, it didn't sync with our system, so we don't have that booking, so we got to put you somewhere else. And that was a little further outside the city center in Rome. So, then you've got this whole commute issue and whatever else that was like, and I didn't even want to go to Rome. I don't know. I don't love it.

Robbie Wagner: [39:04] A Rome hater.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:06] The Forum is interesting. Some of the touristy stuff is interesting, but I just feel like maybe it's me, but it's always the worst food experience in Italy for me, and it's always kind of one of the dirtier places.

Robbie Wagner: [39:19] Well, it's like a real city compared to everywhere else in Italy, where it's not like that. It's definitely you can find things that aren't Italian food, and there are shittier things, because the rest is like, okay, we have a few mom-and-pop owned restaurants that are, like, amazing, and we're this tiny town. So, yeah, you can't have a shitty restaurant if you're three restaurants.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:43] Sure. I've been to many big cities, so I've been to many big cities, even in Italy. Milan and Florence and Naples is pretty big, actually, and they have incredible pizza. Roman pizza, not good. The whole, like, we cut it with scissors thing and weigh it and, like I don't know, it's like mediocre Detroit pizza in my view, versus, like, Napolitana style, which is really great.

Robbie Wagner: [40:06] Destroy pizza is good, though.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:08] Yeah, it's really good, but it's not as good in Rome, right? It turns out they don't use any butter in the crust, and the number of times I've had to walk over feces in Rome, too, is also disturbing. Like, there's just all kinds of things. It's just not my favorite place that I've been there.

Robbie Wagner: [40:24] At least it's on a nice cobblestone street.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:28] It's not that nice. Anyway, the Pineto district back in the day had some decent food, so I was able to find better places. But in general, for me, it's sort of like, I've been there, it's not for me, I don't need to go back. But my wife really wanted to go back and then she thought giving me this luxury place to stay was sort of like, oh, but it'll be, like, kind of baller and fun and cool. And then it wasn't that because they switched us. We had lunch in Florence. That was awesome. We were in rural Tuscany. That was really fun and cool. We had this little villa there overlooking the hills and went to a couple of local vineyards. There's one called Avignonesi, which I think you said was like some sort of...

Robbie Wagner: [41:08] Sangiovese rearranged.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:10] Yeah. And Sangiovese is like the king grape in Tuscany anyway, so it does use a lot of that. So, it was like the first time I've been to one that was like, bio farming and organic and all this stuff. All the organic wines that had to that point were not good. A lot of them, like, California wines or whatever. But this was amazing and the property was amazing. It was probably, like the best Italian wine I've ever had. So highly recommended.

Robbie Wagner: [41:35] There aren't all Chiantis organic? No, DOCG is all organic, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [41:40] Yes, DOCG is the whole thing you get if you're like bio farming, organic, and all that.

Robbie Wagner: [41:45] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:46] So, yeah, this one was, like, the best. So good. We did that. And Salcheto was another one we went to. It was organic. It was pretty good. So that was nice. Saw some friends in Bologna or like, outside of there, nice as you get north, the roads get nicer. People actually follow some traffic laws, so that's kind of cool. I went to Venice, which I'd never been to before, and I'd always heard of, like, super touristy and not really.

Robbie Wagner: [42:12] And all the time you spent there.

Chuck Carpenter: [42:14] I know, it's funny. I'd always avoided it because the first time I was there, some people went off to Venice for a day and they were like, yeah, it's like a one-day thing. And it's super touristy. It's like, not a big deal. So, I've always been like, okay, well, I don't care. I don't do super touristy. But we did and loved it. I think it's great.

Robbie Wagner: [42:30] Yeah, I think it's really cool. It is very touristy, but there's still a lot you can do. That's cool.

Chuck Carpenter: [42:35] Yeah, exactly. So enjoyed that. Ended up in Como, did not run across George, but had a great experience there, and yeah, so overall, it was nice. It was fun. But there was all kinds of little snafus that were going on. So, by the time, it was time to go home, I was ready. I'm ready to go home. So many of the beds are uncomfortable, even in nice places. Oh, yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [42:59] I think it's because you eat dinner at eight or later and have like a whole bottle of wine each, so you don't care how the bed feels. You're just passed out.

Chuck Carpenter: [43:09] Yeah, you don't do that with young kids. But yes, I guess we did try to do stuff sort of later. We slept in more and we did do later dinners because we're like, we don't want to completely shift them and then have to come back.

Robbie Wagner: [43:23] Everything else closes except for eating dinner. It's like everyone stops what they're doing and closes every shop and everything you could possibly do and eats dinner from like eight to ten and then nothing opens back up and everyone goes to bed.

Chuck Carpenter: [43:36] Well, because there's not a lot of nightlife in that way. I mean, in general, in my experience at least, even though they have Amaros and all these alcohols and all these vineyards and amazing wines and stuff, drinking culture is pretty mild for someone to have one or two glasses of wine, that's kind of pushing it. And then if you went a third and had a glass of Limoncello, oh, you're done for the night. So, it's interesting that they have all of that, but not really a drinking culture. Most people just don't drink very much.

Robbie Wagner: [44:07] I think it's spread out a lot longer. You have some Aperitivo, maybe you have a drink or two, like, get to dinner an hour or two later, have a glass or two of wine there. It's like you never have enough quick enough. Like the binge drinking American culture, you don't do any of that, but no, you just have a little bit for a really long time.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:25] I do love the Aperitivos. When I was there the first time, I was doing some volunteer work and everything, and we would go out and do Aperitivos as like, our dinner, because if you order two or three drinks, you get tons of food and you're like, Oh, now I'm good.

Robbie Wagner: [44:39] Yeah, they give you the most ridiculous amount of free food to pay for a drink. And I'm like, what is this? This is weird. But it's nice.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:47] Yeah, it's way better than tapas. In Spain. And tapas, you get the nice [unintelligible], you get some of the ham and some crackers or something, but like, you get a little plate Aperitivos, you just get a bunch. And I've been to one that is a buffet. Buy a drink, go to the buffet. It's like crazy town.

Robbie Wagner: [45:06] Yeah. Which tells you the margins on the drinks are just really high.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:10] I mean, it's not the case everywhere. Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [45:13] You can't make money on food unless it's fancy food, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [45:16] Yeah. You need to be able to charge a premium on that. So, I guess wrapping it up like the Italy trip was an adventure, as always. And stuff happened, and we dealt with it, and my kids had a great time. I mean, Italy is an amazing place for kids, because if they can eat pizza, pasta, and gelato every day, they're happy. It really doesn't take too much.

Robbie Wagner: [45:40] Yeah, there's not a lot of vegetables. If there are, it's maybe, like, a little spinach in a pasta dish or something, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [45:45] No, not for my daughter. She wants spaghetti semplice or pasta semplice because they would be different pastas or whatever, which is basically just in butter oil with cheese on top.

Robbie Wagner: [45:56] Oh, yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:57] And she would crush that.

Robbie Wagner: [45:59] That's amazing. That's so good.

Chuck Carpenter: [46:01] Yeah. And at a certain point, like, early on, she was eating everything, and eventually, she was just like, no, I want noodles. I only want noodles. She wouldn't even eat pizza anymore. Everywhere we went, she had noodles, and she'd just be, like, shoveling that and.

Robbie Wagner: [46:17] Then just got to add some pepper on top and migrate to cacio e pepe.

Chuck Carpenter: [46:23] Yeah, that's the next step for her cacio e pepe. Where was that? So maybe that was in Rome. That was probably the best place we went to this time. So, there was this old restaurant near the Pantheon, and they have, like, the big four of pastas in Rome. So cacio e pepe is big in Rome, but there's, like, a red sauce, one that also includes I don't know. I'll need to look it up because I won't remember now, but, like, oh, man, that place was really good. That was an incredible meal.

Robbie Wagner: [46:54] Is it a spicy red sauce?

Chuck Carpenter: [46:58] A little bit, I would say. Hold on here. Rome Pantheon.

Robbie Wagner: [47:04] I'm guessing one of the four is carbonara.

Chuck Carpenter: [47:07] Yeah, which I love carbonara. So, what's funny is, I also watched Stanley Tucci has a show called Searching for Italy, and he's got, like, different episodes in different cities. And when he's in Rome, he goes to the same restaurant, which my wife had already made a reservation there. So, we kind of lucked out on that.

Robbie Wagner: [47:29] As you have to do, because if you wait until you're there to make a reservation, you took too long.

Chuck Carpenter: [47:33] Yeah. Da Armando al Pantheon. Yeah, that was the place there, and it was incredible. And they had, like, very simple dishes. Everybody was happy. What are the four pastas of Rome? I'm going to do that. I'd always just thought of cacio e pepe as the big thing, and that's kind of always what I got there. Yeah, but carbonara. So, the rumor around carbonara is that there's some back and forth as to whether it's true or not, but the Americans were there during World War II, and they wanted bacon and eggs in their pasta, and so this is kind of what they come out with. Yeah, that kind of tracks for me.

Robbie Wagner: [48:20] Nice. I could see that. Yeah well, we don't have bacon, but we've got some jowl we can throw in there.

Chuck Carpenter: [48:26] Exactly. Which is also very good. Okay, so the one that has the red sauce, but it also has the bacon. And so, it's kind of like carbonara but with the red sauce or just with tomatoes.

Robbie Wagner: [48:41] What's it called?

Chuck Carpenter: [48:41] Amatriciana.

Robbie Wagner: [48:43] I don't think I've had that one.

Chuck Carpenter: [48:44] Yeah, it's pretty good, actually. So, it has a little bit of that. Like it does have a little spice because I think they use the red chili flakes and they also do the bacon in there, but then it has pomodoro. Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [48:59] Tomatoes.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:00] I'm in the mood for certain things, I try and say.

Robbie Wagner: [49:03] Yeah. All right, well, we've talked about it early for a really long time. We have a few minutes left. Don't really have a lot else to talk about, but no, the NFT is coming very soon. We have at least decided we will have four tiers, starting with bronze, silver, gold, and diamond. Diamond will be like two people. I don't know. I haven't decided if it's exactly two or just us. Maybe no more than five. For sure. What's that?

Chuck Carpenter: [49:29] You don't know what this is? Put your diamonds in the sky. Come on. Kanye West fan.

Robbie Wagner: [49:34] I don't know about that.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:35] Diamonds are forever. You never know. Oh, my gosh. Sad.

Robbie Wagner: [49:40] But anyway, so the diamond one will be something like you get to come sample our whiskey collection. Like whenever, basically if you're near Phoenix or Middleburg or I guess DC, get to hang out with us, do whatever, maybe be on the podcast. I haven't decided 100% what you get, but like, diamond tier will be a big deal and you'll also get everything the other tiers get. So, it's like that like cascading down and gold will be basically the whiskey club membership. So, you'll get all the barrel picks. We do I don't know what else, other whiskey things we do. And then the others will be like different perks with swag and community access and whatever. So, we have the art being created right now by Ian, our designer, and he's going to have all that to us this month sometimes. So, then we just need to figure out the tech side of actually creating an NFT and what the perks are and all the things we want to do with how we verify that you own NFT and what kind of airdrops we might do and all the NFT buzzwords, but it is all in the works.

Chuck Carpenter: [50:53] There you go. The site for that is your Redwood project.

Robbie Wagner: [50:57] I don't think you need everything that would be a NextJS project. I don't need to log in.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:03] You don't think you need a back end?

Robbie Wagner: [51:04] No, you do, but I don't know, it could work.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:08] Yeah. So, you're going to have to connect your wallet, right. Your MetaMask or whatever it is, to Mint. I don't know if that's a Redwood-capable authentication thing probably built-in at this point. Or maybe we can create that plugin. Yeah, that is how we get some town money.

Robbie Wagner: [51:26] NFT minting plugin.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:30] Web3 mint. Minty.

Robbie Wagner: [51:33] Yeah. No, we could do that. We haven't figured out the tech stack. But we will not be Ember because I want to try something else just for fun, because I can do Ember in my sleep. I actually make websites, and they're just done in the morning when I wake up.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:48] That's good. Sleepwalking. Here's the thing, is that the Titanic only has so many lifeboats.

Robbie Wagner: [51:57] But those lifeboats are full of all the diamonds and jewels of the wealthy people leaving the Titanic.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:04] Right. Are you in first-class or third-class? I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [52:07] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:09] Are you Leo or are you, I don't know, other famous American family?

Robbie Wagner: [52:15] Yeah. All right, well, that's enough random stuff, I guess. So, thanks, everybody, for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe. We will talk about some more important things next time, I promise. And we'll catch you guys then.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:32] Thanks for listening to Whiskey Web and Whatnot. This podcast is brought to you by Ship Shape and produced by Podcast Royale. If you like this episode, consider sharing it with a friend or two and leave us a rating, maybe a review. As long as it's good.

Robbie Wagner: [52:47] You can subscribe to future episodes on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more info about Ship Shape in this show, check out our website at shipshape.io.